If Dersim was a massacre, what was the other thing?

Ayvazian, If you read my name incorrect, what would be the case when we are talking about the Armenian case? Your assumption is that when someone knows the history of the Turks must be a Turk. Martin van Bruinissen, the friend of pkk, knows a lot of Kurds, he is not a Kurd. Your problem is that you’re making assumptions. That’s a general problem of the supporters of the Armenian genoncide (a genoncide is a genocide based on lies and fraud). === You wrote about the standards of 1919. Let’s read about these standards in 1919: The Allies about the trials of 1919 (see article Guenter Lewy “Revisiting the Armenian Genocide”): --- At the time, the victorious Allies considered them a travesty of justice. The trials, British high commissioner S.A.G. Calthorpe wrote to London, are "proving to be a farce and injurious to our own prestige and to that of the Turkish government."[22] In the view of Commissioner John de Robeck, the tribunal was such a failure "that its findings cannot be held of any account at all."[23] [22] Calthorpe to Foreign Secretary, Aug. 1, 1919, Foreign Office, 371/4174/118377. [23] De Robeck to London, Sept. 21, 1919, Foreign Office, 371/4174/136069.--- >>> If the Allies at that time called the trials ‘travesty of justice’, it didn’t meet the standards of that time. Armenians and their friends are so desperate in trying to convict the Turks, they even use the outcome of such travesty of justice trials. Maybe the reason for their rejection of the trials (see article Guenter Lewy): ---Throughout the trials, the court heard no witnesses, and the verdict rested entirely on documents and testimony never subject to cross-examination. Heck expressed disapproval that the defendants in the Yozgat court were tried on the basis of "anonymous court material."[17] [17] Heck to State Department, Feb. 7, 1919, U.S. National Archives, RG 59, 867.00/81 (M 820, roll 536, fr. 440).--- >> > Echoes of Guantanamo. And such trials you Armenians prefer? You must be desperate (for now I shall not talk about the trials of Malta 1919-21 in order not to make you feel more desperate). === [Ayvazian: ]---Concerning Guenther Lewy:You and I know that he is controversial and not a reliable person.He tried to blame the Catholic Church for the Jewish Holocaust instead of the nazis.He also tried to convince that the germans did not commit genocide against gypsies.Moreover he was born in 1923,while the Armenian Genocide was in 1915. Gunther Lewy is found non-credible by most historians.Are you that much in despair to use him as as your only evidence? As I told you .You can not rewrite history.--- >>>Read the sources he had used. There’s one fact that discredits a scientist as reliable: When he uses forgery, demonstrable lies, etc, to confirm his claims. You should now know which scientists I’m talking about. And you wrote: “Gunther Lewy is found non-credible by most historians” >> > There are thousands of them, let’s say 5,000. Could you give at least 1,000 names of historians who reject Lewy? === [Ayvazian: ]---You will always find Gunther Lewys who will try to deny the Armenian Genocide or the Jewish Holocaust. Also ,it seems that you do not know what genocide means .It has nothing to do with numbers. Genocide is the intentional elimination of people according to the race or religion,confiscation of their land,homes ,ownings,and wiping the evidence of their existance.This is exactly what happened to Armenians ,Mr Bernard(or Brian or Osman...).--- >>> For a genocide you need one thing: hate. If there is no hate, you will not see a genocide. This hate against a group can be found in media (publications like books, daily news papers, etc.), speeches, etc. This hate prepares a genocide. Amazingly, the Armenians and their supporters use in the Armenian genoncide literature and publications such material. Armenians should never talk about the Holocaust in this matter (812th Armenian Nazi Battalion).

Thank you 'Ludvik Ayvazian' for your exhausting answers. Let's hope that there are more righteous Turks like 'Ertugrul Ozkok' than denialist 'so called' Bernards and Brians in Turkey.

Dear Brian or Bernard (or may be Osman..., because of the details you know ,you seem to be turkish). The turkish tribunal of 1919 met the standards of that day exactly as the Nuremberg tribunal of the germans(after WWII)met the standards of the day.You cannot rewrite history.You know that the retrial of the nazis in todays standards will have other outcomes(at least nobody will be sentenced to death) .But you know that this is not acceptable.so stop making such claims. Concerning Guenther Lewy:You and I know that he is controversial and not a reliable person.He tried to blame the Catholic Church for the Jewish Holocaust instead of the nazis.He also tried to convince that the germans did not commit genocide against gypsies.Moreover he was born in 1923,while the Armenian Genocide was in 1915. Gunther Lewy is found non-credible by most historians.Are you that much in despair to use him as as your only evidence? As I told you .You can not rewrite history.You will always find Gunther Lewys who will try to deny the Armenian Genocide or the Jewish Holocaust. Also ,it seems that you do not know what genocide means .It has nothing to do with numbers. Genocide is the intentional elimination of people according to the race or religion,confiscation of their land,homes ,ownings,and wiping the evidence of their existance.This is exactly what happened to Armenians ,Mr Bernard(or Brian or Osman...).

Özkök: ----… If the killing of 7,000-90,000 is a “massacre,” according to even the most official voice, what then will we call the losses in the Armenian question? According to Armenian allegations, a total of 1.5 million were killed in 1915. But let’s say the death toll was 600,000. How many times more of those who were killed in Dersim? If the number of dead in Dersim was 7,000, it is 200 times more; if 90,000 then 17 times more. Yes, if the Dersim incident was a massacre, then what was the Armenian incident?---- >The death figures given in the Armenian Genoncide (1,5 million or 600,000 in your math) are related to all causes of death: starvation, disease, violence, etc. By the way: What would you call the death of 5,5 million Muslims (most of them Turks) between 1821-1922 by the hands of the enemies of the Ottoman Empire? Mustafa Akyol, who wrote about Dersim, has written an article about it in Hurriyet: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/h.php?news=after-all-who-remembers-the-ottoman-muslims-2007-02-15 ( “ After all, who remembers the Ottoman Muslims?”).

Ludvik Ayvazian, you wrote about the 1919-trials. Why don’t you tell us that they didn’t comply with international legal standards? Read “Revisiting the Armenian Genocide” (paragraph ‘The Turkish Courts-Martial of 1919-20’) by prof. Guenter Lewy. The Alllies called these trials travesty of justice.

Sireli/Sevgili/Dear Brian, If you're still reading this, has the responses to your question been satisfactory? I hope it's clear that this is more than just "Armenians say". There are plenty of very current books out there for you to read and you can find them on Amazon. This is strongly encouraged since one can't educate oneself by simply reading comments written on a news article. There is only so much I can say here. Also, what is your interest in the Armenian genocide? You seem to have taken one side over the other on this. Are Turks themselves not biased? Especially given that the education system is geared towards pushing an official historical view.

Dear Brian. You wondered why Armenians are refusing non-biased historians to discuss the Genocide issue.This questions rises from your lack of some historical facts that I will explain below. Turkey was already found guilty for commiting the Armenian Genocide.The leaders of Ettihad Ve Tarakki(young turks) where found guilty(Talaat-Enver-Jemal-Nazim) and sentenced to death by military tribunal(5-July-1919-verdict "kararname"of the turkish military tribunal).The compensations were to be discussed later,and the arbitration of land was granted to president of USA ,Woodrow Wilson ,who decided the turkish-armenian border according to which Western Armenia was completely handed to the Armenian people(Treaty of Sevres-1920). The verdicts and arbitration WERE NOT APPLIED,due to the appearance of communism and the need to Turkey.Also the need of stability and petroleum of the region which made Winston Churchil say that "petroleum was more valuable than armenian blood". Let me also put it this way:Imagine that,50 years later, Germany tries to deny the holocaust and demands a new,NON-BIASED investigation.Will that be acceptable?We are tired of such successive claims,which are made every while. The Armenian Gonocide is a historical fact which is taught in universities.Denying the Armenian Genocide is a crime in Switzerland and I do not think that the Swiss are idiots ,and there is no Armenian lobbying power in Switzerland. Creating a comittee of historians 100 years later will enter the issue in a maze,which will dissolve responsibilities.Do not forget that Armenian assets,lands and ownings were also occupied and it was followed by cultural Genocide.Physical evidence of Armenian existance in Anatolia was wiped. The Armenian Genocide is not a historical issue .It's a political and criminal isue. I hope that I was able to clarify my point

Dear Brian: For the past 60 years historians from all backgrounds and nationalities have come to document the genocidal policies that were pursued and executed by the Ottoman Empire during 1915-1918 by . There is a rich documentation and historical research in the area and on that basis the world public opinion as well as international scholars have formed their considered opinion. In the face of this damning evidence any talk of a review by an independent team of scholars can not be considered a serious proposition and can rightly be seen as a sad attempt to drag into the future and delay ( if it is at all possible) the final ( and inevitable) recognition by Turkey and its current Government of the Armenian Genocide. Nobody stops you to educate yourself. Nobody stops the Turkish government, its public and scholars to study for themselves what actually happened. For too long Turkey had decided to silence history. Fortunately there are people in Turkey who are challenging the status quo. They are educated people, who have read what has been published and are raising troubling questions that were taboo until recently. Join them by educating yourself : you do not need any body to tell you how to think. The remarkable article by Mr.ERTUĞRUL ÖZKÖK should be a good beginning.

Brian, "I wonder why Armenians refusing non-biased historian's search in that matter? Finding the truth that doesn't suit them?" This is a loaded question. It implies that this is only an Armenian allegation and that there is not enough evidence for genocide. The case for genocide has been made. There have been both Armenian and non-Armenian, inlcuding Turkish research in various non-Armenian sources. These are for you to find an read. The international Association of Genocide Scholars as affirmed that What happened in 1915 was genocide. It is taught as such in genocide studies in universities. The International Center for Transitional Justice was asked to weigh in by the Turkish Armenian Reconciliation commission of 2004 and the ICTJ concluded that the given evidence meets the definition of genocide. The Turkish government for decades has hid history and pushed and an official vesion. Thus the purpose of any commission would be to put the Armenian genocide into question. The those accused of genocide are the Ottoman leaders of 1915 and not the Turks of today. Also, I doubt that you speak for all of Ireland when you say "us unbiased people from Ireland can only think of one answer..." I think the various reportings over the past few years including this article shows the reality of the amnesia that has been pushed on Turkey.

Dear Ludvik Ayvazian, maybe you are right and maybe you are wrong, but you did not answer Mr. No names simple question.(.I wonder why Armenians refusing non-biased historian's search in that matter? Finding the truth that doesn't suit them?) There is the question again. It is a perfectly reasonable one. I have asked this question here before, but not ONCE have I received an answer! The question is ignored, and then I get an answer with opinion on the subject, but nobody ANSWERS THE QUESTION! WHY WILL ARMENIA NOT AGREE TO AN INDEPENDENT HISTORICAL INVESTIGATION? At the end of the day Ludvik, us unbiased people from Ireland can only think of one answer,,,because they are afraid the truth will not support the genocide theory. If you can give me a real answer to the big question, I would be very interested to hear it, and I am sure many other people, both Irish people like me, and Turkish people who you accuse, would love to hear your answer. My guess is there will be NO answer, just another rant saying "It was genocide and we don't NEED to prove it, you just have to believe what we say!" If it's true, say yes to an independent investigation. I for one would NEVER support this genocide accusation without real proof.

A so-called- journalist who just heard abou the incident happened 70 years ago does not have the right to speculate on its outcome and the people involved, and moreover he does not have the right to speculate on the 1915 incident as a comparison. Because he is not an historian. Only with the genuine historic data accumulated by historians of both parts involved should the public be informed, and not by the ignorant journalists. Peoples of Anatolia can never be foes. Because they (Turks, Arabs, Kurds, Greeks, Armaniens, Alevis and Sunnis, Christians, Jews) lived as friends for centuries. Please caution and respect the Great Turkish States founded in Anatolia who respected its peoples!

I am glad that in recent years the general amnesia in Turkey on discussing the Armenian Genocide is now gradually being challenged and replaced by rising voices within the Turkish society enquiring about what happened during 1915-1918. It is impossible for any nation and informed, educated and intellectual individuals within that nation, to claim ignorance of the past without jeopardizing their integrity. Thank God that times are changing! People like ERTUĞRUL ÖZKÖK are helping me as an Armenian to deal and cope with my pain and memories as a human being. For the rest I hope that the dialogue will continue.

Dear Mr. ÖZKÖK, I am speechless, or better as an Armenian; I have nothing else to add when common sense and human feelings are expressed courageously. Thanks SIR.

Mr. Ozkok....I am truly impressed by your courage sir! you have my unconditional respect

don't be afraid to use the word GENOCIDE!!!

Dear Mr Ozkok, Brave people like you are gaining ground while cowards like mr "no name"(see reader comments) are losing ground inspite of threats and intimidations. There are no turkish mass graves except in the imagination of mr "no name" and the rotten educational system founded by"the deep state" which is based on brainwashing turkish generations and growing the seeds of hatred against non-turks . If turkish mass graves existed they were supposed to be under spotlights,to deny the existance of the Armenian Genocide. On the contrary the mass graves of Armenians in Der El Zor are widely known and acknowledged by the international society. Yes ,indeed.what happenned tp Armenians was a GENOCIDE.It was followed by cultural Genocide,which led to the complete or partial destruction of everything Armenian in Anatolia. Brave people like you,Mr Ozkok will gradually lead to the victory of Right on wrong while the cowards of the "deep state"will sink deeper and deeper. Confronting history and correcting it is the best way of restoring justice. Do not forget that Armenians ,in the worst case,were your equal partners in Anatolia,until some evil decided to eliminate their existance,to create a "pure" turkish race. In 1915 Turkey lost the opportunity to be the LAND OF CIVILZATIONS.(Armenian,Greek,Assyrian...). Today it is only the land of Lost civilizations... Land of Civilizations could easily be restored by little courage and confronting the past...But are you brave enough?

I wonder why Armenians refusing non-biased historian's search in that matter? Finding the truth that doesn't suit them? When will the Armenians accept they have murdered Turks, Kurds and others during that period (mainly women and children as men were busy fighting in the war). Should we call it genocide as well then? Mass graveyards of Turks are there to prove. Can anyone remember/know how and why everything has started? Why some of Armenians in Istanbul and other cities thought it was OK back stubbing and killing Turks who they lived together for centuries? Who armed them and why? Do Armenians remember ASALA (the terrorist group who murdered 46 and 299 injured Turkish/French citizens in the middle of Europe and USA. The main target was Turkish ambassadors and officers). How about the killings/ethnic cleansing/genocide against Azeris less then a decade ago in Karabakh? Strangely enough no-one wants to talk/remember that. Maybe it doesn't suit. Few words for the author (Mr Ozkok) as well. How interesting to see they way he has transformed since he was a lecturer at Hacettepe University, in Ankara. Especially from his political views. Maybe he is a new candidate for the Nobel price! This is where the money is nowadays.

I never liked definitions that exclude ande include depending on numbers. Numbers only makes the event or tragedy more or less important but it does not or should not change the nature of the crime. I believe these were massacres all of them. They were systematic against others, non Turks and non muslims.What Today's Turkey needs is to recognize all this, the whole history and apologize to the victims and their decendants Armenian, Kurds and other christians.Turkey needs a whole new society based on tolerance and democratic principles.This cannot be done by the current constitutyion and laws.

The killing of 1,500,000 innocent Armenians is Genocide. The Turks has perpetuated Genocide of Armenian civilians and nobody will ever forget the real nature of Turks.

Mr. Ozkok is starting to ask questions which have been suppressed in Turkey for a long time. What actually happened to the Armenians? If it was not Genocide, than what was it? Reactionary forces in Turkey have kept a lid on asking these type of questions for almost a century. They've hidden the truth from the Turkish people. Maybe now it's time to start discussing openly this subject and any other subject that the Deep State prevented discussion of for a long time?

Wow ... these articles remind me of the events of 20 years ago in Europe, namely the fall of the Berlin Wall. A lot of soul searching and self reflection ... a lot of brave new articles by brave journalists. I love the changes I see.

Genocide.

If the "Armenian incident" was indeed one scheduled event, then it must be called genocide. If not, it was a series of massacres along with expulsion and other crimes. Dersim was in itself more than just one massacre. Numbers of victims are of minor importance for a definition compared to the intentions and the mode of deeds involved. Anyway a murder is a murder and if it is more it is two murders or ten, and so on. Or not? hpg