Turkish president invites historians to study Armenian massacres

Clarification: This may come quite as a shock to you, but my history is learned from Armenian publications, by your own militant leaders, who gleefully and proudly gloat about their terrorist activities long before they dreamt up the strategy of using "genocide" to try to lay claim to lands Armenians could not obtain through armed conflict and in which they were NEVER the majority and in which they represented only 17% of the population.

Dear John, Answer the questions and spare us your delusional propaganda. This may come quite as a shock to you, but my history is learned from Armenian publications, by your own militant leaders, who gleefully and proudly gloat about their terrorist activities long before they dreamt up the strategy of using "genocide" to try to lay claim to lands in which Armenians could not obtain through armed conflict were NEVER and in which they represented only 17% of the population. It is because Armenians were only a small minority in southeastern Anatolia that the U.S. Senate after WWI rejected an Armenian mandate after reading the Harbord report. Know this, your fictionalized Western Armenia will never materialize through the distortions and fictions you promote. Your leaders were invited to join the Ottoman Empire in its defense of itself before WWI, but REJECTED that invitation, deciding instead to lay itself in the hands of "Mother Russia". Your fate is to live with the decision made by your people. Your choice now is to learn to join the civilized world and value truth and peace, if you're capable. We're still waiting for answers to the questions. Why do you avoid answering them? WHY ARE THE DASHNAK ARCHIVES CLOSED? What is the Armenian nation so ashamed and/or afraid of that it hides the truth from its own people, for example, by making it illegal to possess a copy of the publication by Armenia's first president which acknowledges the Ottoman rightfully defended their country against Armenian militant activity? Answer the questions John and spare us your twisted and phantasmagorical fiction which you try to pawn off as history. Do you know who İsmail Erez is? Do you know who Talip Yener is? Do you know who Oktar Cirit is? Do you know who Nejla Kuneralp is? Do you know who Ahmet Benler is? Why is there a statue to "honor" of ASALA (Armenian) terrorists in Armenia? Why does Armenia honor terrorists who massacred unarmed innocent civilians? Answer the questions John, and stop trying to sell your snake oil, and then we can talk about peace and truth in history. Answer the questions you and all genocide promoting Armenians so desperately avoid.

Dear Kent, It probably wasn't appropriate of your teacher to teach about the genocide during American history class. That said there is some American history involved, namely that there was a lot of coverage in the US newspapers about the massacres, the detailed reports sent in by the American ambassador in Istanbul, and there was quite a bit US aid organized to help any survivors. The genocide was more than about Christians and Muslims. It was nationalism and fear and loss of territory by an empire. "Then the Turks crushed the Armenians and marched them off to Syria". This is such an over simplification. The majority of Armenians were not armed and they were far from the front lines. And yet Armenians, regardless of their allegiances or politics or age or gender were marched off to the desert even though the outcome of the deportations were clear from the beginning. Often the able men of the villages and towns were killed resulting in caravans of children, women and the elderly under the guard of the Ottoman army. And the deportations were in addition to the outright massacres. Deyarbakir was probably worst of the massacre areas. The 1.5M figure has always been an estimate and I always took it to mean an upper limit on possible dead. It really doesn't matter whether the figure is 800,000 or 1.5M. It's about what happened and who did it. And there are many sources besides the family histories of Armenians. American, German and Austrian sources are very enlightening. The vast majority of Armenians in the empire were in the eastern provinces. The 1.1M population figure you give most likely is the Ottoman census numbers and most definitely and undercount. "This will be a great shame on my father's side of the family, but the truth must be found." The shame falls squarely on the shoulders of those who committed the crime in 1915. And also on the Turkish government for not dealing with this issue decades earlier and hiding behind nationalism. The Turkish government had ample time for reconciliation in the last century. As a result, current offers of historical study will unfortunately be met with strong scepticism and cynicism.

Dear Neslihan Ozmen…Dear friend… My grandfather who was a survivor of the genocide use says a popular Turkish proverb, “There are dogs in every village”… To justify the Genocide, the inhumane destruction of an entire nation and it’s civilization by looking for excuses in the isolated actions, attempts of self defense of some individuals and a political party, is not serious and pathetic at best… This song was sung for to long by the Turkish government too long…. As a learned person you should know that the Armenian Genocide was not a Muslim verses Christian conflict at all, but a Nazi one, one that was fueled by Pan-Turkic dream to unite all the Turkic tribes/ nations from Europe to China, and the systematic ethnic cleansing of non Turkic minorities in the Ottoman empire did not start at 1915 during the Armenian Genocide and unfortunately did not end there, may they be Christian Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, etc or may it be Muslim nations, Arabs, Kurds, Laz, etc.). As the old Ottoman Empire was coming to painful disintegration by loosing lands in Europe/ Balkans, etc which was accompanied by loss of life, property and as the Turkish occupying population was returning back to Anatolia with all this loses, the unprotected peaceful, unarmed and yes at times wealthy non Turkic above mentioned minority nations were becoming fair game and an easy target to mentally and physically compensate for the loses in Europe…. One by one…. Should I list??? No, I know you can find enough historical material and reference…. Dear Ozmen, I also know that the big fish eats small fish in the nature… And power corrupts…. After all this are human weaknesses, and no one is immune to them… So why keep the great Turkish nation hostage to the wrongs of few Nazi criminals? Do the potential and virtue of your beloved Turkish nation doesn’t deserve better???? I think it does, so does the brotherhood and the bread and salt we and our ancestors have shared together…. Dear Ozmen, I was visiting Turkey few years ago, and I felt so much at home, for everyone looked exactly like Armenian, they even thought and expressed themselves us one… I suspect many of them share the same blood…. Yes, we made love together much longer then war… This is a fact, may all the hate mongering zealots on both sides like it or not….I’m not even going to list the cultural common wealth we share… My great grandfather was an architect and an officer in the Ottoman army, most his friends were ethnic Turks. I think their friendship and their memory deserves better… I truly hope that one day soon The Armenian nation will erect a new monument next to the Genocide monument in Yerevan to honor the memory of all our Muslim brothers (Turks, Kurds, Arabs, and Persians) who stayed true to their humanity and extended a helping hand to the survivors of the Armenian Genocide by risking their own life. I’m strong and resolute in my trust in humanity by their legacy… To come true with the truth, with your history, to acknowledge the Genocide can only be in favor of and in glory Turkish nation. And if you still have any doubt, please read what the first Turkish Nobel Prize Winner , a great humanist Mr. Orhan Pamuk has proclaimed on the subject, or at least read the History books of another great Turk, a historian Mr. Taner Akcham. It is easier to love then hate, and it is good for health….

To all Armenian Denialists, Why have the Dashnak archives been closed for the past 120 years? Do they document the deliberate and strategically planned massacres of Ottoman Muslims/Turks in villages devoid of war age men committed by Armenian militants during WWI behind the war front? Do they document the Armenian militants efforts and successes in sabotaging the effort of the Ottoman state to defend itself during WWI? Do they document the criteria Armenian militants behind the war front use to choose which rail/transport lines to bomb? Or how Ottoman soldiers returning from the disastrous Sarakamis battle were massacred by Armenian militants lying in wait on the Anatolian plane? Do they establish that Armenian militants orchestrated ethnic cleansing and massacres to alter the population ratios in southeastern Anatolia in connection with plans to form an "ethnically pure" Armenian state there? Before WWI, the majority of the population in Erevan was Turkic Muslims, yet not a SINGLE ONE of their descendants remain (contrast that with the still existent Turkish Armenian population). Do those same Dashnak archives document what Armenian militants did to those Turkic Muslims during and immediately after WWI and how they successfully cleansed the region of its entire Muslim population? Have your officials been working for the past 90 years to cleanse the Dashnak and Armenian archives of all evidence of the vast array of war crimes and the treasonous activity of Armenian militants during and after WWI? And, why is your "hero" Antranik known as "the Butcher" in the Black Sea coast region of Turkey? Your hypocrisy should put you all to shame. Turks and Turkey acknowledge that there was a civil war within WWI in southeastern Anatolia and fully acknowledge the suffering of ALL of those who were present in that region. You're self-absorbed fantasies of riches at the expense of the survivors of a vicious war waged and LOST by your forefathers and your complete indifference and disregard for the suffering your forefathers caused leaves one to wonder what humanity is left in those of you who have been so fully brainwashed by your extremist Dashnak leaders. That you continue to trust without question all that is sold and force-fed to you by those who glibly and maniacally led your people to fight a war they could not possibly win, based on the promises of third party countries like Russia that had so completely betrayed your people in the past, clearly indicates your inability to learn eve from your catastrophic mistakes. Leave the border closed and let Armenia suffocate in the economic isolation that is of its own making. One more question, you all know who Hrant is, but do you know who Neslihan Özmen is? Or Mehmet Baydar? Or Bahadir Demir? Or Daniş Tunaligil? And the list goes on and on and on ...

As I remember nobody had doubts on whether it was Holocaust or no. Then why it must be "human beings" who are suspecting on the fact? The answer is quite simple, and that answer is that Ottoman policy still alive, nowadays Turkey's goverment is doing everything for not recognizing it, anc comprising such committe is being made for a sole purpose, which is to give bribes to those foreighn historians for lying, for saying that it was no genocide.

The insistence of Turkey to have a committee of historians investigate what happened those days has been very suspicious to me. There are books and personal accounts some of them from Turkish citizens that leave no doubt that there was a premeditated attempt to clean up Turkey from all Christians not only Armenians. Turkey should open all its archives and allow its own citizens to investigate and criticize Turkish policies and actions of the past without the fear of been prosecuted as guilty of insulting Turkishness. This should be the first step in the search for the truth. Turkey has been refusing to open the military archives to investigate the fate of many missing Greek Cypriots taken as prisoners by the Turkish army in 1974 and nobody knows whether they are still alive or dead. Among them includes a wounded boy of 4 years old. How can I trust that Turkey is willing to be sincere in investigating the Armenian killings when is refusing to investigate killings of a much more recent event even if teh killings are of a smaller proportion?

"If we keep on living the present with the problems of the past, we will only poison the future," I agree with what Mr. President Gül is saying, but also I have for him another proverb: "Who doesn't learn from the mistakes they did in the past, are condemned to repeat doing that mistakes, over and over again, in the future"

There is a lot in Turkey that cast doubt on the sincerity of Turkey with regard to "the historical commission" on 1915 e.g. deficiency in academic objectivity , article 301 etc. But maybe, just maybe, because no Turkish government or organisation can safely recognize the Genocide then a place exists for an entity acceptable to both sides to pronounce on 1915. This entity can then slowly and surely, with the help of objective people , turn Turkish public opinion. Turkey is moving, albeit slowly, towards a proper democracy. There may be a pattern here. Maybe doubters should consider sitting on the fence on this one.

I hope this commission will study all sides and aspects of the events. They have to cover not only the Armenian and Turks in Turkey, but remember the other nations and nationalities too. Armenians have killed many hundred thousands of other nations too, such as Turks in Azerbaijan (Azeri’s), Kurds and Jewish people. If Turkey was not strong enough to stop the Armenians aggressions in Turkey and Caucasus, there was not a country by name Azerbaijan, neither living Kurds, Jewish in the Caucasus.

Presiden Gul says that "it is clear that people do not know what happened and are not able to make decisions on this matter" referring to the Armenian Genocide under the Ottoman period. President Gul is an educated man and in his position I assume that he has at least read some of the works published by European and American historians that have provided extensive commentary and analysis of the events that happened during WWI in the Ottoman Empire. If he has not read them would this justify his claim of ignorance? I am excited to read how Turkish public opinion is gradually coming to understand the nature of the terrible events that happened during that tragic period. On the other hand I am terribly frustrated to see how intelligent and educated people decide consciously to act as illiterate and in the process demean themselves. Not knowing is not a crime. Not trying to learn is a demeaning act for intelligent people.

I believe the President is sincere in his desire for rapprochement with Armenia, and with facing up to its history regarding the events of 1915. That over 20 countries have accepted the 'truth' of the Armenian "Genocide", as guest reader Taron claims, does not prove that it was genocide. Politicians who have been hearing only one side of the story for nearly a century can hardly be trusted to remain impartial. Politicians get elected for pursuing their political interests, not the truth. Establishing an independent panel of historians remains the best and only chance of either proving or disproving the thrust of the Armenian claims. If a genocide did in fact occur, then Armenians should have nothing to fear, and would be vindicated. They would also prove their skeptics wrong and the 'genocide' claims would then be established as fact. Is this not their (Armenians') ultimate aim anyway? The only plausible reason for Armenian opposition to the establishment of an independent panel, is that Armenians do not believe in the validity of their own claims. This in turn supports the Turkish claims that there was no genocide.

I first heard of the Armenian Genocide in 1978. I was taking a Freshman level class in American History at a local Junior College. My history professor decided to talk about the Genocide. I was shocked for these reasons: I have never heard of this before, This was suppose to be American History and the Teacher was of Armenian descent, It was protrayed as a massacre just because the Armenians were Christian. My father always taught me that the Turks were very kind to those they governed. The Turks took in the Jews and treated the Jews very well. So I wondered, why would the Turks just kill the Armenians. Then my father gave me an American History book by a famous American Historian by the name of Roberts. This book came out in the late 1950's. The book stated that the Armenians first attacked and killed thousand of Turkish villagers in and around Van. Then the Turks crushed the Armenians and marched them off to Syria, but didn't have enought provisions for the Armenians. So the march was like a death march. The book stated 20,000 or more Turkish villagers, mostly women, children and elderly were slaughtered. The book then stated that 250,000 Armenians died. Over the years both numbers of dead have risen. in 1980 the number of Armenians killed was 1.1 million. Now it is 1.5 million. Plus I have read from several sources that only 1.1 million Armenians lived in the Ottoman Empire and only the Eastern Armenians were deported. I don't know what to believe. I am afraid that the Turks will be found guilty of genocide. This will be a great shame on my father's side of the family, but the truth must be found. So I say let there be a investigation into this matter by both parties. So far I have only found a one sided research into this by the Armenians. That doesn't sound very balanced.

to Brian, the archives have been sealed for scores of years. Do your really believe that the genocide revisionists in the Turkish government have not gone over every jot and title with a fine tooth comb to "prove" no genocide occured. Just read a sampling of the eyewitness accounts, US ambassador Morganthau; ?German Missionary Lepsius, American Physician. Read the New York Times of that epoch, read the turkish tribunal that found Talat, Enver and others guilty of genocide. No my friend there is nothing else to examine. Unfortunately our whore self-proclaimed leader who stole the election Russian Mafiosa-style and does not speak for Armenians will capitulate (for a fine price I am sure) to this pre-condition. May God or some patriot strike him down before his treachery unfolds! I hope the good Turks of Bursa keep this reptile out of their stadium.

I have a question ... would it be reasonable if the Germans said there was no genocide (holocaust) of the Jews? and then state that if the international community wants we can set up a joint committee to look into the facts and see if a genocide happened? I understand that purhaps a formation of a committee maybe a tactic to thaw the hate between the two peoples however, as many senators of the United States have said, To form a committee to discuss whether or not a genocide has occured is a slap to the face of the Armenian People...

Brian, If Turkey is sincere in its quest to study its own history, then it should not restrict its own citizens from doing so in their own country. It should repeal all the laws which prohibit an open discussion of the issue in Turkey; it should invite international non-Armenian experts who do not agree with the Turkish official version of history to present their research to the Turkish public, to share that with Turkish experts/historians. Without going through this process, asking for a joint historical commission with Armenia is just an effort by Turkey to: a) bring the issue down to a mere historical dispute, when in fact it's a political dispute; and b) to stop the international recognition of the Armenian Genocide of 1915-1923.

International historians have already formed a commission and have already studied what happened to the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire before and during the first world war. In addition to those named above, the foremost unbiased and independent historical commission on the study of genocide, the International Association of Genocide Scholars, concluded that what happened to the Armenians was indeed a genocide. You can read more about this at http://www.genocidescholars.org/.

Dear Brian, You wonder why Armenians do not trust the so-called "impartial commissions" to "study" the Armenian genocide. Because this issue has already been studied by impartial historians. simple! Prime Minister Erdogan has said in the past that Turks have not committed a genocide against the Armenians (a clear verdict on his part) and that in the Turkish Archives there are "a million documents attesting to this fact", he goes on to say. Really, and why do Turks needs a commission to bring this "million documents" to light. Go ahead a publish it and let impartial historians look at it and give their own impartial verdict. What are Turks hiding in those documents? is a more appropriate question to ask. Mr. Erdogan does not need Armenians to prove Genocide was not committed, give us that proof that is verifiable and I, as the son of a genocide survivor, will be the first to call it "1915 incidents". What are Turks afraid of ?

Dear Brian... "Armenians Constantly deny this offer from Turkey to have joint commission of historians to study this issue " is the same reason that the Jews will not accept a review of the Holocaust. It is an absolute fact. My family suffered trough it, had many losses. Next to all the suffering they went through as the result of the genocide they also passed down stories of human courage by their Turkish neighbors and friends, who risked their lives and helped to save some of their Armenian friends. We haven't forgotten this either. We want friendship that is based on the mutual respect. The only meaningful way to do this is to acknowledge the Genocide and the rest I think will be easy. We have so much cultural common heritage that it is a shame to waste it.

"Thank you for commenting. Before we can publish your comment, we need to check that it is in accordance with Turkish laws." Wow, that didn't take long at all. This is exactly what i am talking about.

Personally, I do believe that a joint commission is pointless. The reason I feel this way is Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code, the murder of Hrant Dink, the countless state-sponsored threats against anyone who has an opinion on the matter (differing from the "official" Turkish thesis) and the millions of dollars spent by the Turkish government fighting Genocide recognition abroad. I ask you, does this seem like a country/society who's willing to examine their past, or confront some of the more negative aspects of their history? This particular debate has absolutely nothing to with massacres, death tolls or war-time conditions, and everything to do with human-nature. This is more pyschology, then history. Anyone who believes, in this climate of suffocating free speech, that an honest and open diologue regarding the matter can occur within Turkey, are just kidding themselves. If i could offer up any advice, it would be that you should discuss the matter amongst yourselves openly and without fear of reprisal, then talk with the Armenians.

I hope the Turkish laws will allow the posting of the following response: First of all, in my opinion Turkey should investigate the issue itself and not repeat the position of the early leaders of the Turkish Republic. Over twenty countries have recognized the Turkish genocide of the Armenians as an indisputable fact and the Society of Genocide Scholars have stated without reservation that the Armenians were subject to genocide. Scores of renown historians agree it was genocide and the International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ), commission by the Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Commission, in their study concluded the Armenians were subject to genocide What other possible outcome could such an honest historical commission be other than a reiteration of what is an accepted fact. Unlike the Jews in the aftermath of the Nuremberg Trials, Armenians do not have the luxury of completely rejecting any inquiries into confirming the genocide. The Jews have the ability to reject as blasphemous, for example, somebody publishing an analysis of the gas used in gas chambers as being not really Zyklon-B, but perhaps Zyklon-C, or –D.

I wonder why the Armenians constantly deny this offer from Turkey to have a joint commission of historians to study this issue. I know this is not the first offer of this kind. It is a very reasonable and responsible offer from President Gül. Are the Armenians afraid the outcome will not be as they would like it to be?