Greek media lauds PM’s Turkey visit

Dinos and Mehmetcik interesting debate, but Dinos please do not pass of the information from the interent regarding the dispute in cyprus as some how objective- this is one sided pro Greek misinformation that is neither reflective of the truth or objective in showing the history of the Island from the 60's on. A genuine peace in Cyprus can only come about when Greeks are able to appreciate their role in the violence in Cyprus which was articulated by Mehmetcik. Only when the Greeks can acknowledge this is there a prospect of a peaceful settlement in Cyprus.

Mehmetcik Mehmet: You are a formidable debater but I do not wish the larger point to be lost in our conversation because you are either more skilled or intelligent than I. This exchange of opinion is not meant to aggrandise those pursuing it, rather it is meant to better the lives of others who have become victims of the situation. Therefore, choosing none of the propaganda of either side, here is a third party and unbiased version of what is happening in Cyprus (this info is freely found on the Internet): "The 1960 Constitution provided for a presidential system of government with independent executive, legislative, and judicial branches, as well as a complex system of checks and balances, including a weighted power-sharing ratio designed to protect the interests of the Turkish Cypriots. The executive, was headed by a Greek Cypriot president and a Turkish Cypriot vice president elected by their respective communities for five-year terms and each possessing a right of veto over certain types of legislation and executive decisions. Legislative power rested on the House of Representatives, also elected on the basis of separate voters' rolls. Since 1964, following clashes between the two communities, the Turkish Cypriot seats in the House remain vacant. Turkish Cypriots refuse to establish the state of affairs before the invasion of Cyprus in their attempt to de jure partition the Republic of Cyprus. This is evident in the Secretary-General of the United Nations report at the time. The Turkish Cypriot leaders have adhered to a rigid stand against any measures which might involve having members of the two communities live and work together, or which might place Turkish Cypriots in situations where they would have to acknowledge the authority of Government agents. Indeed, since the Turkish Cypriot leadership is committed to physical and geographical separation of the communities as a political goal, it is not likely to encourage activities by Turkish Cypriots which may be interpreted as demonstrating the merits of an alternative policy. The result has been a seemingly deliberate policy of self-segregation by the Turkish Cypriots."

These are the facts for Turkish Cyprus as an excerpt from the EU web site: "The whole of the island is in the EU. However, in the northern part of the island, in the areas in which the Government of Cyprus does not exercise effective control, EU legislation is suspended in line with Protocol 10 of the Accession Treaty 2003. The situation will change once a Cyprus settlement enters into force and it will then be possible for EU rules to apply over the whole of the island. However, the suspension does not affect the personal rights of Turkish Cypriots as EU citizens. They are citizens of a Member State, the Republic of Cyprus, even though they may live in the northern part of Cyprus, the areas not under government control. The two parts of the island remain divided by the "Green Line" that separates the government-controlled areas from the rest of the island. The Council approved the Green Line Regulation (Council Regulation No 866/2004) on 29 April 2004 to deal with the movement of persons and goods across the line. While many people move across the Green Line every day, trade across the line remains limited, amounting to approximately € 600.000 per month . On 27 February 2006 the EU approved an aid regulation for the benefit of the Turkish Cypriot community aimed at putting an end to the isolation of this community and helping prepare for the reunification of the island 2 €259 million was voted in 2006 for this programme which is to be implemented by the Commission (DG Enlargement) over five years. The main aims are: 1. social and economic development ; 2. infrastructure, in particular energy and transport, environment, telecommunications and water supply; 3. reconciliation, confidence building measures, and support to civil society; 4. bringing the Turkish Cypriot community closer to the Union, through information on the EU, and contacts between Turkish Cypriots and other EU citizens; 5. helping the Turkish Cypriot community to be ready to implement EU rules (acquis communautaire) in case of a comprehensive settlement ."

Dino – I acknowledge your post with the civility and respect all sensible lines of discourse should be greeted with. I’m afraid you haven’t really addressed my points, however I am glad we are having this discussion and greatly appreciate your input. Firstly, yes the two state model exceeds the objectives of the Annan plan, however we know that plan failed as it was rejected by referendum in Southern Cyprus (“the hand extended to them by Greek Cypriots”?) so it’s fair to say we need to look at this once more. Even on this point, the federation proposed by Annan that was backed by the majority of Turkish Cypriots was extremely loose, a de facto two state solution one might argue, which was part of its appeal to Northern Cyprus. Any future proposal would need to feature the same characteristic, and if the Greek Cypriots rejected it once, what’s to say they won’t reject it again? On the point that "division" is the antithesis of "union", well yes that is correct parlance, however the point is lost by extrapolating national union as being the goal of the European Union. The EU has been in effect for decades now, and while cooperation between member states is increasing, I see no effort to fuse individual nations into hybrids ever succeeding in Europe, as you suggest ought to be the case in Cyprus. Quite the opposite in fact when one considers events in the former Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia. Bringing this into particularly sharp relief is the idea that interlocking communal interests as you put it, could be just as easily delivered with two nation states on the island as opposed to just the one. I am particularly fascinated Dino on your comment that a two state solution would be a failure burdening the European conscience, and one I think I agree with. Europe would like to resolve the Cyprus issue without the aid of other major powers (read US and Russia) as I think this would galvanise perceptions of the EU political institutions inside and outside of the bloc, whilst re-invigorating the original idea behind the EU (a project for peace in Europe). I just can’t see what difference that should make to the Cypriots, particularly the Turkish Cypriots who have been badly let down by the international community for decades. No one on the island should be pushed into making a decision that is not in their best interests, and while there are security and other issues to be addressed, I feel a decision to reunite would not best serve those of the Turkish community. Beyond security many observers have other concerns around reunification. I for one feel we currently have two distinct, proud peoples capable of living together as neighbours on the same island and sure of their identities. Were we to force the two together, what kind of identity would we be left with then? I think it is naive to assume a Cypriot identity will instantly or painlessly (or even eventually) spring forth, subverting ethnic lines of heritage in the process. We will still be Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots, we just won’t have a representative body either of us can be wholly assured is representative of us, let alone proud of. Thus the seeds of ethnic strife are sown as history can testify. Given this, a two state option has to be at the very least credible if not compelling for Turkish Cypriots. Finally I also find Aphrodite as a metaphor for the rebirth of Cyprus compelling, but to get the full dramatic effect we should really put the events around her birth into context, namely Zeus spitefully slashing off Cronus’s genitals and throwing them into the frothing sea, from which she arose…..

Noname – I’m not sure where to begin with your post! Are you suggesting the notion that there was ethnic strife between the two communities inhabiting Cyprus prior to Turkey’s intervention in 1974, is stupidity and propaganda? Many Turks lived through it. I can assure you it was the case. Do you think that labelling the aforementioned strife as precipitous to that intervention and thus the significant route cause of today’s partition is not generally acknowledged as a fact by most independent historians, let alone believed buy any Turks? I think you might be the only one to ‘believe that crap’ as you so succinctly put it. Or that Greece was being ruled by a military Junta thus unwilling/incapable of intervening in Cyprus, let alone sponsoring Sampson’s rise to power and feverishly working away to implement Enosis? These things are not matters of opinion they are just chapters in the sad history of our country. What about the idea that Turks killed half the island? I’m not sure anyone killed half the island did they? And to then call opinions that differ from your own ‘dramatic and ridiculous’, well that is just ironic in the extreme! And that is without even mentioning the notion that Turkey felt Cyprus was a danger – a danger to what exactly? Surely not Turkish sovereignty? The only thing under any obvious threat in the build up to 1974 was the continued existence of Turkish Cypriots on the island, and this was due to the attempts by Makarios then Sampson to renege on the constitution and make Cyprus an exclusively Greek ethnic body thus, easing the path to Enosis.

Dear Mehmetcik Mehmet: Thank you for your reply; I consider it civilized but yet not pragmatic. The idea of two different states exceeds even the framework of the Annan plan which as you know was not acceptable by the other side as proposed. Also the idea of "division" is the antithesis of "union" when it comes to the European idea of interlocking communal interests. If we were talking about the ED (Europe Divided) vs. EU (European Union) then your proposal might have a chance. I think you should agree the it would both a moral and political failure for the Europeans if their contribution was to divide the island and not address it as one legal entity. In fact EU has already spoken on this matter when they decided to accept the whole island as a member but suspend the acquit communitaire (European law) for the Northern part of the island. Turkish Cypriots who have applied for EU passports through the recognized Republic now have the freedom of movement within the EU. As far as the security concerns and sensitivity of Turkish Cypriots on protection, I am fairly certain that special arrangements can be agreed upon as part of the final settlement. As you know, Cyprus is according to legend the birth place of goddess Aphrodite, emerging from the sea on a Cypriot beach. Likewise, Cyprus can become the birth place of the first elements of a European army to provide for the transition needed. In any event, wishing Turkey to maintain an army on lands of an entity(EU) that it(Turkey) wishes to join is an idea that only the enemies of Turkey could aspire to. For as much as you enjoy the support of a friendly state, Turkish Cypriots must realize that in this particular case the costs far outweigh the benefits for both Turkey and the Turkish Cypriots. I think the only credible option is for the Cypriot Turkish community to grasp firmly the hand extended to them by the Greek Cypriots and EU, and begin, yes, an uncertain but a very promising path of prosperity and communal co-existence.

In a period that even the turkish people wake up and there are films and books about the turkish propaganda that caused the abusement against the greeks etc we have the same lies..A small country like Cyprus was a danger..And you wanted to protect the turks in cyprus in a period that greece under houda could not help this was the reason you killed the half of the island...Sorry but are you so stupid to believe that there is even one turk or anyone who believes this crap...If you are not..Stop saying them ..Cause yes it is dramatic but you are ridiculous...Say we wanted Cyprus and we found a time that greece had not the power to invade..Immoral,bad,coward thats us,,Much more clever of you then these,,,

Dino - I agree with your general optimism resulting from individuals and communities now engaging with one another in ways they may not have been doing so in the past. I am also hopeful that a final solution to the problems of Cyprus can be agreed on and implemented soon. I am however, decidedly less enthusiastic at the prospect of the EU or any other foreign body guaranteeing the security of Turkish Cypriots. The only bodies that have every cared for our security are the Turkish Government and Armed Forces. All you have stated below about guaranteed safety through EU member obligations is a fantastic ideal but needs to be viewed through the prism of recent Cypriot history. Once we adopt this viewpoint it becomes alarming clear that for the EU in '09 we can read the UN in the 60's/70's. Neither organisation being capable of securing peace and prosperity for both communities in Cyprus. The more we look at the problem, the clearer it seems to me that the ultimate solution will be a two state one, with each community secure in their own self-determination and prepared to live in peace with their neighbours across an open border.

It is encouraging to see these issues being discussed, even though sometimes comments are edgy and over the top. As a general observation, one can choose to live in the troubling past or a constructive future. It is my humble view that the Turkish Cypriots under the legal EU framework will be protected like never before and that the Greek Cypriot side has no other choice but to abide by this new framework as they are obliged to do so in their EU membership capacity. Presence of foreign armies offers no protection to no one. It is a rather sad and oppressive reminder or a troubled past and of wounds that refuse to heel. The sooner the indigenous populations can go back to the task of living their daily lives together the sooner the island's spiritual, human and economic recuperation can begin.

Past?What past we speak about something that happened when i was a child not fifty years ago..And this person who killed these two guys has never been in a court or something like this,,,Also these 1200 people who were hostages and we know that they are dead would be 50,60 years old now,,,And their families still wait for them..So we do not speak for the past...But for now ..We will se what will happen in the future if these people change their minds,,,One day..

Guest - Erden (2009-10-12 16:22:39) : Solomo Solomou got killed because he touched our flag, he deserved it and was warned ---------------------------------------------------------- I think thats enough to understand the Turkish mentality. Its normal for a man, father of 2 children to die.. for a piece of cotton! Policy ala Turka. I hope Papandreou realizes it too.

• “... the barbarians would eventually win... Sultan Mehmet II... aroused the fanaticism of the Turkish soldiers... Terror and horror followed the capture of the city [Constantinople]: massacre, plunder, enslavement, vandalism and other barbarisms...” (from GREEK primary school History textbook, quoted in Millas, 1991, pp. 25-26) • “Greece attacked the Ottoman Empire (1912-13) when the empire was at its weakest. During this war the aggressors acted with cruelty. They killed the Turks without pity... Until the Greeks appreciate our friendly offers we should be very wary and cautious with this neighbour. Turkish boys and girls must realise this.” (from TURKISH primary school History textbook, quoted in Millas, 1991, p. 27) We have (on both sides) been raised and brainwashed with this kind of stupidity, which we take for granted, instead of using our brains and study everything critically. We also keep believing in some smart guys, who speculate by using a distorted history of the past as a tool for promoting their political future. In the meantime, ordinary people on both sides pay the bill...

Peter - Some context on Cyprus -The concerted campaign of violence, intimidation and murder conducted by the Hellenist fanatics of EOKA in the name of ENOSIS precipitated the 1974 Turkish armed intervention in Cyprus. We should note that 50,000 Turks also lost out in terms of property in the South but with their lives and liberty intact few, in comparison to their Greek neighbours, have felt the need to complain. When reflecting on the historical course of events, it seems beyond doubt that Cypriots of all ethnic groups, but particularly the Greek Cypriots have been badly let down by their leaders. Firstly 'His beatitude' Archbishop Makarios, then the even more explicitly brutal and murderous Sampson and his backers in the Athenian Military Junta, can primarily be blamed for the troubles on the island. The Turks I feel have also been let down, particularly by the Unilateral declaration of independence in 1983 which naively played into the hands of their opposition. In a more direct answer to your question: would I accept a greater power telling me my home and property were no longer mine? Contextualizing as before, I may have difficulty swallowing such a course of events, but if my leaders were brutally murdering my neighbours, extinguishing their culture and presence on our shared lands, clearly breaking international law and trampling over agreed the constitution of our country to do all these things, I wouldn't be surprised by it.

Mr. Erdogan went to Constantinople (Instambul) to meet Yiorgo Papandreou who surprised all by showing up in Turkey in short order. This is good symbology. Will it ever evolve to materiality? Let us hope so. But as long as Turkey feels that it has military strengt and economic size so it should not be held to the same accountability standards expected from everyone else there will be no progress. specifically, Turkey flies over inhabited Greek Islands with impunity; Turkey occupies a portion of Cyprus and it claims to "have liberated" it; Turkey blames the victim of its invasion, Cyprus, for being non-cooperative. It is like a rapist who claims the victim is not cooperating! These are examples of Turkish arrogance which will need to disappear. In return, Greece should not be worried to grant Turkish Greeks the same rights that Greeks with Turkish citizenship are demanding. Nothing to worry about as long as they stay within the provisions of Greek and European law.

Why do all you closet extremists show up at forums like this? No matter what, I think it is great that the two wonderful countries of Turkey and Greece have started to reconcile. If you want to keep on hating each other and remember every little injustice that the other part caused you 1000 years ago - fine. Keep on living in the past, while the rest of the world moves on further and further away from you.

Whatever has happened is the past, however the current issues need to be resolved to truly move forward. Greeks and Turks and all Cypriots are friends. Its the politicians who bring instability to the region, on ALL sides. What I dont understand, and one had mentioned in here that it may be because of the PKK issues, is why when Greece offered to sit down and resolve the issues in the Aegean, Turkey refused. The offer is still on the table. Let Turks and Greeks be one again. With both in true freindship, peace and will, they can make the region the next economic modeled zone for the world to look at. Just sit down and talk it over. Geez!

Erden you have to go to a jail or a mentality hospital..You have problem...I warned you..Stop it ..You will expose yourself...I know you and your love,,,

solomo solomou got killed because he touched our flag, he deserved it and was warned

Nimo yes you love the greeks and the cuprians that was the reason you shot solomo solomou and his cousin some years ago and you killed them...If this is your love...We do not want your love...And you love us so much that call us pkk...You are so hateful and stupid...You are sly but not clever enough to cover your real thoughts..I would accept apologize...And stop being greedy..You have a huge country you have no relationship with cyprus..And we have every right to not give you the chance...For the sake of the 1200 people you killed in 1976 and solomos solomou anfd his cousin i accept an apologize..If you are not a monster,,,And because i am a good person do not continue with this..

Dear Nimo how would you feel if a country or an army or anyone takes over your properties and house and memories and claims that they are no longer yours? Would you accept it? And if yes after how many years? How would you feel if the oppressor tells you let us be friends now, why are you so hostile to me , whatever is done is done, let us forget about it etc. Which is pretty much what you are saying. I am curious to see how would you feel. Because it may happen one day to you too. The PKK may be used by some superpower and take over a huge part of Turkey and the richest, kick you out of your house and land and then tell you let us be friends now and forget the past. Would you accept it? Or is it because it is unlikely that it will happen to you the principle of it is of no interest?

Dear Nimo how would you feel if a country or an army or anyone takes over your properties and house and memories and claims that they are no longer yours? Would you accept it? And if yes after how many years? How would you feel if the oppressor tells you let us be friends now, why are you so hostile to me , whatever is done is done, let us forget about it etc. Which is pretty much what you are saying. I am curious to see how would you feel. Because it may happen one day to you too. The PKK may be used by some superpower and take over a huge part of Turkey and the richest, kick you out of your house and land and then tell you let us be friends now and forget the past. Would you accept it? Or is it because it is unlikely that it will happen to you the principle of it is of no interest?

Well done. A great way forward!

I disagree guest noname... Turkey doesnt hold a grudge against Greece, its the other way around mainly because of the war and Cyprus, had we lost maybe we would have been the ones to hold grudges... the Turks are the ones that want friendly relations, we dont care if Greeks come to Turkey for a holiday, we treat them as we would any tourist but when I went to Greece they treated me really good when they thought I was Greek but when I told them I was Turkish they changed (luckily it was the last day of my holiday!!). I have many friends who are Greek, one of my best friends is Greek, and we get on perfectly because we have put the war and Cyprus behind us because it shouldnt bother us. The world has developed the way it has, Greece is Greece, Turkey is Turkey and Cyprus is North Cyprus and South Cyprus... to be honest, when some Greeks say "Cyprus belongs to the Greeks" its not any different to the PKK saying "we should attack Turkey because part of it is Kurdistan" which may have been true once upon a time but is not now and hasnt been for a very long time! Not all Greeks are prejudiced against Turks and vice versa but there are still a few who are, same with Turks but our main problem is with the Kurds which may be why we arent really bothered with the whole Turk-Greek thing

well done both prime ministers for talking and well done to mr papandreou for coming to turkey for his first visit.I agree with mr dinos plassaras we need an agreement for both turkish and greeks citizens and i hope that soon progress will be made.with goodwill from both sides this will happen and the people can live in peace in both countries.

The greeks always wanted friendly relationships with Turkey..Turkey creates problems cause they want the agean...Of course and we have to discuss it in order them to stop creating problems..It is ridiculous,,Also they have to watch more carefuly their coasts cause many people leave through Turkey and the sea for greece and other mediterenian countries...

It' s time for a new approach to the relations between Greece and Turkey after 5 years stagnating...

For levity's sake, if one did not know what the PM's looked like(never seen them before) and judging from color of the ties alone one might think that Edgogan was the Greek PM from his blueish tie and Papandreou his counterpart because of the red tie. Then again maybe this is what is all about and a chance reminder that everything is relative. Humor aside, let's make some significant progress for the benefit of citizens of both countries and perhaps a new chapter of economic cooperation as this global economic crisis puts an emphasis on local solutions.