Turkish Foreign Ministry says far-right Dutch MP 'unwelcome' in Turkey

Aras - cheers for the gratuitous insult, made me chuckle! Nowhere did I say I supported any system of "racial" hierarchy; you're distorting my words completely. I loathe and despise racists. Islam is not a race. What relevance does Genghis Khan have within this context? And I have no idea why you're bringing up Article 301 (a repulsive law) as your beloved AKP instated it, an continue to enforce facist censorship in the press, internet and free thought.

OK - so most people here seem to be able to agree that Wilders is an opportunist and a clown (not bad for a TDN debate !). I don't accept however the arguments put forward to try to silence him and anyone else who speaks out against aspects of Islam by using the 'racism' trump card. Europe may have a Christian history but it is entirely permissable in most places to look at its scripture and judge it by its merits within the context of the 21st century and a crowded globalised world. (Thats why churches are emptying !) I heartily wish that Mr Goksel Doganay was right when he states that ''Islam is not a political force or ideology, it is a religion and people can either choose to be one or not.'' Unfortunately the reasoned debate that he attempts is destroyed at once by such a fatuous statement. For obvious reasons, more and more people are reading for themselves Islamic scripture and are left feeling very worried indeed. If you don't accept my argument - go and do some research - find out why the Organisation of Islamic Countries has issued an alternative to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Go on !

Whilst I don't support Wilders' policies, the view held on him by the Turkish government is totally indicative of double standards. On the one hand the AKP welcome The Sudanese Premier with the statement 'Muslims are incapable of genocide' but turn away Wilders because makes statements about Islam that Erdogan and his cronies make true by their blatant two-faced double standards and 'high and mighty' opinion of their faith. I personally think ALL religious can at least be partially compared to Mein Kampf, especially historically, but Wilders' one-sidedness (whilst not detracting from truth in some of his statements) is only mirrored by the opaque short sightedness of the AKP and a lot of opinions in Turkey.

To AtheistTurk, I usually avoid bringing my self down to the level of brainless and worthless characters but I must ask you this, since you support this fungus ideology of racial/cultural inferiority. And since you are hinting towards suggesting that presumably your Turkish atheist ideology/culture is inferior. How is it possible that a Mongol Genghis Khan culture be inferior of any other culture. Also, you should understand that been a puppet doesn’t change your status in the eyes of Mr Wilders because to him you are just like the rest of those who are not so inferior. Happy is he who is not a Turk to avoid been imprisoned for “insulting Turkishness” in the 21 century.

Geert Wilders is a pure racist individuals and he is not only against Islam and Muslims but he is also against anyone who is different from him. But now it is rather very convenient to target Muslims instead of everyone, he has basically chosen a target of opportunity. I came to know him through his documentary titled “Fitna”. although his film is perceived as anti Muslim, if you observe closely, it is actually anti immigrant regardless of their faith. Throughout his film he complains about immigrants influence over the Dutch society and their unwillingness to adopt but instead change the Dutch society. In the film, one scene depicts a residential building where immigrants live and his main focus was to show how dirty the building was to prove the differences in standards compared with the Dutch. But he failed to realize that by doing that he shot himself in the foot because he was actually proving that the immigrant community was neglected by the country. Because it is the responsibility of the Dutch government and Society to provide a social justice to all sects of the society. Nevertheless, one has to be fair and subjective because you can not judge a whole society based on a few angry and irrational individuals. The vast majority of the Dutch people are one of the most tolerant people, not only in Europe but I can say with confident in the world. The Dutch society is very civilized and it is quiet multicultural but unfortunately their politicians reactionary policies perceives them in the contrary. In a civil society and in a matured democracy one can not create policies based on reactions towards non strategic events. During the pre 9/11, in the eighties and early nineties Netherlands had some very over-relaxed immigration policies. As a result a huge influx of immigrants, illegal, and fake refugees flooded the tiny country. This has caused a lot of inconvenience for the already over crowded country and the society was unable to absorb them, thus creating a line of separation. This situation has provided an opportunity to some people like Mr. Wilders to exploit the situation and pursue an agenda which really doesn’t constitute or represent the Dutch society at all. After the event of 9/11 and the murder of the Dutch film maker by a Moroccan extremist, Netherland reacted prematurely by introducing laws such as banning immigrants from Muslim countries. It went further to deny asylum to everyone applying for a refugee status including legitimate refugees, who have actually been persecuted in their countries of origin. To avoid giving individuals such as Mr. Wilders the opportunity to exploit the situation and spread the racial decease to other sects of the society, the Dutch politicians needs to come to their senses and avoid making snap decisions on policies. I suggest that they consider Canadian, Swedish, and Norwegian example in policy making to preserve their respected place in the democratically matured societies. The point I am trying to make here is to ask people not to generalize against Dutch people because the vast majority of them are good and no matter what, there will always be bad apples in every good tree. PEACE

i have read comments here saying let him come he is a clown no one will listen to him, he only rants. yes i agree that he only rants. do not fool yourself or try and fool us. he is not harmless he is very dangerous. the people who burned in apartments that turks live in, in germany and the pathetic individuals who attacked priests and nuns her in turkey. were fed rubbish, racist ideology and hatred by the same type of racists and political power hungry maniacs like Mr wilders. if you profess that this person is alowed a forum nievely thinking he is harmless then you condem my children and yours to racialy and ideologicaly based wars.

The Turkish Foreign Ministry is right in denying Geert Wilders a visa to Turkey. This man is an opportunists who vilifies one religious group in order to advance his political objectives. I am very interested in his ideas on Health, Education, Employement, Infrastructure, Water and Environmental issues rather than his colourful views on Muslims, Islam and Immigration. Democracy and freedom of expression has its limits including Europe. If you don't like Islam fair enough but to go on the record and totally vilify its beliefs and customs is going past the limits of freedom of expression. In Europe you cannot defame anyone, plagiarism is not allowed, libel is not allowed. So therefore there are limits to freedom of expression. In Holland it is also illegal to speak against Homosexuality yet it is ok for a politician to vilify one Religion. So what does this say about Holland? I think as a society they need to have a very hard look at themselves and get their priorities right. Geert Wilders views are also racist not due to his hatred of Islam, but because the people who he targets are Moroccans, Turks who happen to be Muslim. So instead of naming the races he just says Muslims and Islam. I'm not here to educate people but some people are confused with Islam and its meaning. Islam is not a political force or ideology, it is a religion and people can either choose to be one or not. Those who argue that it is a political force have no idea what they are talking about. People have got to realise that people do makes mistakes and you cannot blame it on religion. If hypothetically Islam didn't exist do you think there will be no honour crimes or suicide bombings? I don't think so, I suggest to those people to go and search the facts. Suicide bombings or suicide related millitary activity has been around since the start of time. Namely the Japanese used them during the Second World War, the Tamils in Sri Lanka also used them. Honour killings are a worldwide phenomenon not a Muslim one. Honour killings just don't happen in Muslims societies but they also occur in Western societies. In Western countries domestic violence is widely prevalent and they are in some way given recognition by the courts. For example if a Man kills his spouse in many Western nations if that man can prove that he was mentally unstable or was under some influence of a narcotic or alcohol he will get a lesser sentence. This to me is also a form of honour killing. So in conclusion Geert Wilders is not welcome in Turkey and freedom of expression cannot be used as a pretext to vilify any race or religion. Do not blame religion for modern society problems but look to people themselves.

@brian. just to explain the rest of the worlds view. people from outside the christian west have a problem the wests total unadaltarated protection of freedom of speech. you sum it all up so eloquently in ur contradictory statement. freedom of speech must be RESPECTED. this is where we have a problem. the people who use the excuse of freedom of speech have a total lack of RESPECT for others dignity and beliefs. thats why freedom of speech has lost its status in the rest of the world, and as soon as we hear that statement we turn off and say another western hypocrite. sorry if i offended anyone just practicing freedom of speech ;) eg. if someone were to make a anti semetic statement they would be attacked and charged with antisemitism (as they should be). now where is the freedom of speech. do you see my point.

@ J.Benin: "Or what about Dutch culture? Not much happening there since Rembrandt or Vincent Van Gogh - no great international writers from Holland recently either." Hey I take offense to that, but mostly because the idea of an 'international writer' is nonsense. But being a dutch writer myself, I can say that at least I know a few poets that are pretty good. The idea that some 'cultures' are superior to others: I don't know why people feel the eternal need for these sort of 'superiority' feelings. But it's such a universal phenomenon that you have to look for people who do not suffer from such warped inferiority complexes like a needle in a haystack. Please wake up: politics is not some stupid soccer game. We are talking real people, real lives, real problems here. We don't need anyone feeling 'superior' over anyone else based on something you can't even choose - how ridiculous is that, to be proud of something you had no influence on whatsoever? Think about it. I fully agree with the Turkish government in this case: Wilders is a dangerous, impolite and manipulative hatemonger who is just interested in one thing: power. As a dutch person I must say that I find it utterly ridiculous that our governement would take this clown along to Turkey.

I have to strong opinions regarding all religions: 1) All religions must be allowed to be critisized, made fun of, discussed etc 2) All religions should be kept only to private spheres, and should not in any way be allowed to form politics etc. If we are not allowed to critisize religion, or if religion is guiding the ruling of states on religios ideas, well, then we are talking about the dark ages (Christianity) or Iran (Islam). And that is something we should never allow.

Why would this guy want to come to Turkey??? Arguing that Europe is under the threat of Islamization, he has compared the Koran to Adolf Hitler's book "Mein Kampf," called for the Koran to be banned and described Islamic culture as "retarded." Sorry i laughed so much when i read this ROFL

Europe, the integration debate, islam and Wilders I’m a Dutch citizen and I shall try to explain a bit why Geert Wilders is the second largest party in the Netherlands in the polls. I do not agree with some of Wilders radical views, but I can understand the people who claim to vote for Wilders in the next elections. I also understand why Wilders is not welcome in Turkey, but as a dutch citizen I do want to explain some of the backgrounds why Wilders has become so big. First there is the integration debate. The biggest problem is in the big cities where neighbourhoods tend to change color. Dutch people with money move out of these neighbourhoods and dutch people without money stay. That leads to decaying neighbourhoods and Dutch people becoming the minority in their once nice neighbourhoods. One thing that needs to be clear, is that racism is on all sides. It’s not a white side only thing. It’s a vicious cycle driving downwards and fueled on both sides with extreme prejudice. There are examples where the minority of white people in the foreign neighbourhoods are harassed and driven out of the neighbourhood. There are examples of businesses with Dutch owners who are robbed time after time, until the entrepreneur quits, while the next owner of muslim origin isn’t robbed a single time. There are examples of ambulance personell being threatened and even attacked in some neighbourhoods. Buss drivers who are spitt at, or beaten for no reason at all, most often by muslim youth. There are of course also enough examples of racism and discrimination from Dutch sources. Of course this is a minority ruïning things for the majority. It leaves an impression though and Wilders thrives on each of these examples. Then there is the language and education problem. Some people don’t even speak Dutch after living in the Netherlands for 30 years. An example of a slacking government that ignored these questions for decades. With neighbourhoods growing completely foreign, with foreign shops, schools and services, there is hardly a need to integrate in Dutch soceity, leaving a small islamic society in a former friendly worker neighbourhood. Second part of the debate are the fast demographic changes in Europe. European people don’t breed anymore. They have children later in life (after 30), or not at all. Sometimes carreer is more important, or leasure time, living standards, in other cases environmental issues (overpopulation) can be a reason to have less, or no kids. Result: The small amount of young people can not care for all these old people and still keep society running and debts paid. That’s where mass immigration comes in. Mass immigration has to fill the gap and does fill the gap. Mass immigration comes for 90% out of muslim nations. The decaying muslim neighbourhoods in the big cities show for some a nightmare example how dutch people will have to live when muslims become a majority in more places. This is the fear image Wilders is using. I wouldn’t call it islamophobia though, because a phobia is a psychiatric disease with irrational reasons. I could call the fear exaggerated, but there is a rational element in this fear that is hardly ever discussed, because by now someone has to be a racist, or a phobic and the fascists and nazies fly all over the room and everybody is dugg in the trenches shooting at each other. Moderate politicians don’t dare to discuss this, so Wild Child Wilders does it for them. Some islamic nations don’t make the best of impressions on a freedom loving, secular, outspoken and tolerant European. Arab beardmen calling infidels kufars (sounds to me like Untermensch) with all this hate and condemnation in their voices, screaming the hardest for freedom of religion, while they are not prepared to grant it to another (including the freedom of not being bothered by religion), are scaring a lot of people with flashbacks from the Middle Ages and the inquisition. Of course they can have a soft face and tone, but who believes them when you heard them rant before to throw gays of the tower. The murder on Theo van Gogh by an islamic radical didn’t help either to improve the Arab image. Death threats for every outspoken member in this debate is more rule, then exception. Another example what makes the Wilders types in Europe growing in strength. I know this is hard to hear for muslims who are peaceful at heart and do not want to hurt anyone, but understand that it is not a phobia, but a fear to be colonised by radical islamists. The radical islamists do more to polarise the situation, then the likes of Wilders. They use their democratic freedoms to destroy them. Wilders and the radicals are two sides of the same coin who try to push the moderates to one, or another side based on their identity. There is hardly a room for a middle ground left and the sane people are hyjacked by the wolves. We need to keep understanding each others perceptions instead of condemning them. We need to keep our senses together and deal with the real problems of overpopulation, water and resource shortages, food and fish shortages, environmental and climate problems, lack of good infrastructure in big parts of the world, countries hyjacked by dictators and criminals, greed and an egocentric sense of self-importance in a cultural narcisism. I do belief we need faith and God to help us through this period of turmoil and desintegration, but we do not need doctrines, or religions that divide instead of unite. We do not need ideologies that spread hate instead of love, or claim wisdom, but do not show it in their actions. I will never become a muslim, but I would love to welcome all people to the human family who needs to share a planet and coöperate in not destroying it. We do not have to share a mind, or an ideology, but we can respect each other. We have an interest in battling crime and human suffering. Identity should not matter. The only identity that matters is the one we all share with each other. We are life and spirit. We are as one organism breathing the same air and eating the same food and shitting the same crap. Lets not forget that politics can only solve structural problems. We all have to solve our human problems.

There are many in Turkey who want to talk to him. Both secularists and Islamists. Let them see if he can prove his case. But will they be arrested later?

@j benin of course chrisianity and judaeism are ideologies too. all religions are designed so as to control and get money from naive people. nothing more. I don't understand what you're saying about british tourists though- are they blowing themselves up in Bodrum now? Must have missed that on the news. the main point about Wilders is not that he wants to arrest all muslims- he is merely pointing out the violent messages in the koran

As a dutch national living in Turkey i can only say one thing, mister Wilders is a clown that plays games and know how to play these games very well. Foreign Ministry of Turkey falls right into his trap unfortunatly. as a dutch national i'm deeply ashamed of both mr. wilders and the idea's he stands for. I'm pretty sure that when Turkey would have said please come mr. wilders and we'll invite you with all regards he would straight away find an excuse and cancel his visit since his only aim was to create this situation and he had no intention whatshowever to come and meet anyone. all he does is to drop a bomb and run away to see what happens when it explodes. in my modest opinion the best thing the foreign ministry could have done was acting in sense of reciprocity, current situation is that mr. Wilders is party leader of a party which holds one seat in parliament and hence they should let him speak to let's say the leader of DSP. :)

@ Vilgot - are you kidding.. they would probably be welcomed with open arms. As for the rest of you.. you are missing the boat.. who cares what this person thinks.. if you think he is an enemy.. you should invite him to your home.. providing he will come, and learn what he is thinking and where he is coming from. It is good to always know what the enemy is thinking and doing.. otherwise, how can your protect yourself against him?

Alexander Huss and others, Indeed, Mr Wilders never said he is against muslims as such, but he does not act accordingly. Up till now he has refused any discussion or meeting with any muslim no matter how secular they are. In The Netherlands, the more integrated muslims Mr Wilders has to deal with, the more aggressive he becomes. This because integrated muslims do not exist according to him and are fpr him harder to deal with. Of course, he will never say he is against muslims, as he might be dealth with in a legal way as consequence. However, he has never given any sign he is not against them. He has never rejected the increasing amount of violence and aggression against muslims in The Netherlands.

In this case I fully agree with the Turkish government. Respected Dutch scientists, including those from the famous Anne Frank Foundation, have called in recent reports Wilders and his movement extreme right and racist and a danger for the democratic system. Wilders spits on the Islam and the Koran, the culture in Islamic countries and on the people in those countries. He spits on Turks and Turkey. He is against democracy in Turkey and prefers a military dictatorship to prevent the people to elect parties like the AKP. He abuses Turkey as far as he says Turkey as a NATO member is good enough to protect Europe against the Islam. Few know that Wilders is a very close alley of ultra-right extremist Jewish groups, including people like Liebermann and the Jews in East Jerusalem. How arrogant and presumptious the Dutch politicians to dare to come to Turkey with Wilders.

@AtheistTurk and Jordi So who decides which cultures are inferior? You alone? Is American culture inferior? Well, it is definitely a violent society.Personally I don't see much value being added by so-called British culture. Just look at the British in Didim or Bodrum. Can we then agree that that is an inferior culture? Or Irish considering their long history of terrorism? Or what about Dutch culture? Not much happening there since Rembrandt or Vincent Van Gogh - no great international writers from Holland recently either. Oh, "Fitna" - finally a Dutch blockbuster in the non-x-rated genre. So what gives the Dutch the right to look down upon Islam - your grand tradition of red ligth districts where East European women are trafficked to? If Islam is an ideology, then Judaism and Christianity must certainly also be ideologies. And look at the homophobic Christianity which is practised in Africa - clear evidence of an inferior culture, is it? So all Christians should be prosecuted according to you? Wilders is nothing but a media clown - but like Hitler, with the right backing he can be dangerous.

People here seem to have correctly identified that Wilder's is an attention seeking opportunist and his planned visit to Turkey is quite unnecessary. I don't think the Foreign Ministry can be blamed for stating this. His film 'Fitna' is hardly sophisticated. It is interesting to note however that the questions the film raises about certain passages of the Koran have never actually been answered other than by people labelling him as a racist.

gentlemen: turkey has its owndomestic obnoxiousness to contend with and need import no more; however, mr wilders, as pointed out below, is not opposed to islam as long as it is not being used as a weapon against others. would the harbi-haters displayed in "fitna" also be excluded from turkey, or is it only because mr wilders opposes militant islam that he is unwelcome? the mistreatment of the israeli female chess champion and other public displays of antisemitism seem fine and dandy.

There are some very confused people here. Islam, like any religion, is basically an ideology, (like Communism.) nothing to do with race, ie skin color whatsoever. Therefore it is perfectly normal to criticise religious ideology without being called a racist. There is certainly enough evidence of the terrible things people do in the name of Islam ("honor" killings, suicide bombins etc) so why shouldn't Wilders talk about it?

J Benin - some cultures are inferior to others. That's just how it is, and one should have every right to point that out. Jordi, I totally agree with your comment. As for blocking Mr Wilders - I don't like the guy's policies, but it is counter-productive and undemocratic to block him simply based on his beliefs. He's not physically hurting anyone with his opinions. How is Sudanese genocide perpetrator Al-Bashir welcome in Turkey, while Wilders isn't? What utter hypocracy again by AKP.

Vilgot, u define facist & racist remarks as critical opinions. I ask u : how do u define the holocaust? Ah me fool , christians do not commit genocide. Right?

Problem solved!!! Adolf Hitler, George W Bush & Osama Bin Laden are not a racist.

Geert Wilders has always made clear that he is against Islam, when Islam displays itself not only as a religion, but also as a political, social and legal system. Wilders, however, never said that he was against Muslims as long as they practice their religion according to the laws in Europe and as long as Muslims respect the European concept of seperation of state and church, or in the Muslims' case, seperation of state and mosque. And a final word to Guest J Benin: Guest Jordi is right, when he states that critizising a religion is not raciscm.

kobus herrie has this nailed, but, by all means, check this wilders guy out before you judge what's what.

Wrong! It is cultural racism to be opposed to all people belonging to a certain religion. Antisemitism is a kind of racism against jews whatever their pigmentation (there are black and white jews for example), language, religion, sexual orientation etc etc. Converted jews were also prosecuted by the Nazis. Thus, being against all muslims is racism. Old-fashioned biological racism has unfortunately evolved. So don't comment on something you don't understand, Jordi.

Jordi is right of course, Islam is not a race, and Wilders is not opposed to religion, just Islam at the moment. If he ever gets to the point where there are no muslims in his country, you can bet that he will turn on Jews next, and then Hindus, Sikhs etc. So, Burak Özügergin is correct in that Geert Wilders IS a racist and a bigot. But freedom of speech must be respected even if it includes his ranting. I certainly would not invite him to my country however, and I would not blame Turkey refusing him a visa either. Let him articulate his poisonous disgusting ideas in his own country and leave the rest of us alone. There is just one point to make. As hateful and extreme as his "documentary" was about Islam, there are those who DO oppress and devalue women under the guise of Islam. Of course most Muslims in Turkey do not see women as second class citizens I am sure, but more should be done by the people to try to stop this type of oppression in the religion all around the world and Turkey can be a leader in this area. Some of the Christian religions should do likewise, they can be just as bad as the extremist Islamists.

Jordi: I agree, Islam is not a race and it is not racism, but it is a form of hatred and it is bigotry in the simplest form. To visit Turkey, where this religion is widely practiced by young and old, with these kind of views, is insulting in itself. To try to further his own cause by visiting the country to elicit a reaction is very very stupid - he is in fact proving how stupid and insignificant he is. No doubt if I came to your house uninvited and insulted you and your family, I'm sure you would do everything you can to get rid of me.

Though it is very understandable to not welcome a rude and offensive guy in your house, Turkey might be better off by having the dialogue with the Dutch parliamentarians including extreme right Geert Wilders. The current rumour only give him popular arguments, which are being exploited by him and the emdia. By letting him be part of the group, Wilders will be made irrelevant and he would most likely cancel his trip. After he showed his 'movie' Fitna in The Netherlands, there was almost no reaction, and Mr Wilders was obviously disappointed. By refusing him in the dialogue, Turkey gives Mr Wilders what he wants.

There are also many people in Europe critizising Christianity. Are they not welcome to Turkey either?

Islam is not a race. Being opposed to a religion is not racist

The Turkish government is absolutly right to not meet with this clown Wilders. I am dutch myself and living in Turkey now for more than 5 years and sometimes I feel shamed myself about this kind of people like Wilders. He is nothing more than a stupid man which is only after power and dont provide any real political solutions. He is stupid to see Islam and Moslims like all fanatic and terrorists which they are not and this is totally wrong. Islam is a peace loving and open minded religion. And about Turkey joining the EU , please reconsider becuase EU is nothing more than a big club of money waisting politics and will bring nothing good to Turkey. Turkey should realy keep its own identity and not become part of this circus which the call EU. I love Turkey and Turkey should stay Turkish always and forever!!