OPINION
• MUSTAFA AKYOL
Thursday, July 29 2010 19:31 GMT+2
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Are minarets 'our bayonets?'

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Mustafa Akyol

The recent Swiss ban on minarets has the bad potential of being a watershed event in terms of Western-Muslim relations. Therefore, there is a lot to say about it.

First, the ban is clearly a violation of religious freedom. It would be a violation of religious freedom, too, if crosses were banned from church roofs or Magen Davids from those of synagogues.

That’s why the whole affair is simply a “disgrace,” as a recent New York Times editorial aptly defined it.

Second, the fact that this was done in a democratic way – through a referendum – is not a justification.

Democracy is not the highest political value: higher ones are freedom, human rights and justice. Democracy is valuable only when it operates within these norms.

Otherwise, Jim Crow laws in the United States, which democratically established racial discrimination until 1965, would have been legitimate, too. They were not.

Bad example is no example

Third, the fact that most contemporary Muslim societies have much worse records of religious freedom is also not a justification. Yes, Switzerland is still a beacon of liberty compared to, say, the all-tyrannical Saudi Arabia, where no sanctuaries except mosques are allowed.

Yes, even Turkey has a lot to be ashamed of, such as keeping the Halki Seminary unjustly and immorally closed. But Europe was supposedly a good place where such disgraces did not exist, a place that Muslim nations could be called on to take as an example.

I have personally made this case to Muslim audiences in different parts of the globe. “Would you like it,” I used to ask, “if restrictions were put on Islam in the West?” Now the same question makes less sense.

Fourth, the role of racism and xenophobia in the making of this ban cannot be dismissed. The far-right Swiss People’s Party, the main champion of the campaign, indeed does not hide this.

One of its posters shows three white sheep kicking a black one out of Switzerland for the sake of “security.” When this came out, Swiss Jewish groups said the symbolism of the poster, and its use of color, was “frighteningly reminiscent of Nazi propaganda.”

The question is why was it a big problem for some when the same fact was pointed out in this column? We have such racists in Turkey that we bash all the time. Why should the racists of Switzerland – or Austria, or anywhere else – be immune?

Fifth, Swiss society as a whole, of course, cannot be held responsible. To begin with, more than 40 percent of the voters said “no” – something commendable.

Some Swiss officials, intellectuals and religious leaders also did a good job raising their voices against the ban. Moreover, those who said “yes,” a 57.5 percent majority, cannot all be racists. Most of them seem to have been acting out of fear rather than an ideological bias.

That fear of Islam, as I noted in my previous piece, is a big part of the issue. Moreover, it has some understandable sources. Islamism, which is a combination of Islam and modern totalitarianism, is certainly a fearsome ideology – just like any other totalitarianism.

The violent offshoot of Islamism, i.e., jihadism, is much worse, for it targets innocent people to achieve its utopia. Westerners are more than justified in their concern about these two “ism”s. But they also need to understand two crucial facts:

First, not all Muslims are Islamists. The latter, in fact, is a small minority.

Second, while Islamism gets fed by cherry-picking militant themes in classic Islamic sources, it gets its real fuel from the idea that Islam is under attack and that Muslims are subject to humiliation.

The Erdoğan rhetoric

To illustrate the latter point, let’s look at the famous line by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan that the Swiss People’s Party picked upon: “The minarets are our bayonets, the domes our helmets, the mosques our barracks and the faithful our army.”

These words actually belong not to Erdoğan but Ziya Gökalp, the godfather of Turkish nationalism. The latter was in fact a mild and sophisticated thinker who argued for, among other things, reforms in Islamic law and Westernization.

His exceptional minarets-are-bayonets line is from a heroic poem he wrote in 1912, in the midst of the Balkan War, during which not just the Ottoman military but also its civilian population were suffering very heavy losses. It was, in other words, a time of a sense of being besieged.

And when Erdoğan recited these lines in an emotional speech in 1997, Turkey was passing through one of its regular military coups, during which religious conservatives were being humiliated and threatened by the generals. It was another time of a sense of being besieged.

No wonder that Erdoğan himself got imprisoned soon after.

To put it differently, what made some Turkish Muslims see the minarets as “bayonets” were the threats they faced. Otherwise, everybody knows that the minarets are only the symbol, and the source, of the call “to prayer, to salvation.”

Here is the lesson to take away: One of the effective ways to fight Islamism is to convince the Muslims that the modern world respects and accepts their religious values, rather insulting or banning them.

Yet the Swiss vote, alas, did the exact opposite.


 

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READER COMMENTS

Guest - Carlos
2010-01-07 07:25:23
  To me it is very clear, someone on the Turkish side declared the minarets to be bayinets, the Swiss did not like that and simply solved their problem by banning them. This reminds me of Nasuradin Hoca, who found himself dealing with a hostile general. Neither of them spoke each others language, the General trew som sand on the table, indicating an invasion and the good and wise Nasuradin Hoca simply blew away the sand. Somedody should call him to settle this issue. Nicht wahr?
 

Guest - Bertus Pieters
2009-12-30 19:04:45
  @ Yabanchi Istanbul (2009-12-05), I'd have loved to have commented earlier on Akyol's article and your reaction, but time fails me. Akyol makes a few blunders: a.o. he thinks a minaret is a religious symbol like the Christian cross. It isn't. If it were, church bell towers would be religious symbols too. And it might well be that the ECHR won't regard a minaret as a religious symbol. A lot will depend on how the complaint will be formulated. So the outcome won't be sure. Another blunder is the use of great words like racism and references to the Nazi era. Racism is about race and Muslims are not a race. As the Nazi era is to western Europe the absolute moral low of it's recent history and still a great trauma in modern European politics and thinking, it is quite easy to use it as a weapon. Indeed history repeats itself as mankind doesn't really change. On the other hand history never repeats itself in the same way. As such Europe is quite a different place now compared to the 1920/30's. Indeed the extreme right is a great problem nowadays but they don't have the same militant power like the Nazi’s or the Italian fascists had. Neither do they have a common ideology of corporatism. However Akyol has a point about the xenophobic propaganda of the Swiss People's Party. This propaganda is really intrinsically anti-foreigner. To be more specific anti non west European, pointing to foreigners as the real problem in society. The SVP propaganda is not to be misunderstood: it degenerates it’s victims to something less than human on purpose. Islam - and there you are right - makes itself quite an easy target for this kind of propaganda, as political Islam is a militant force to be reckoned with. But I don't think Islamic cultural imperialism is the reason for the minaret ban in Switzerland. In a country with only four minarets that doesn't seem to be plausible. And quite a few Swiss Muslims originate from Bosnia. Bosnian Muslims are usually no fundamentalists. I think the Swiss vote has to do with ignorance. Without any sign or prove that Muslims are going and willing to build minarets all over Switzerland and in the mean time forcing women to wear burka’s the SVP makes people believe Muslims generally cannot be trusted because they want to make Switzerland a militant Muslim country. The anti minaret poster used by the SVP is clear enough about that. While Muslims indeed should take care of their international image instead of constantly feeling victimized, common Swiss Muslims have a very good reason to feel deterred by the ban and the propaganda made by the SVP. The Swiss vote IS highly disturbing indeed. It is a sign that common sense has lost the battle with irrational populism. At least in Switzerland. A majority of Swiss voters probably prefer to be manipulated than to use their brains in another way. In the mean time (official) comments from Islamic countries about the Swiss vote show the same good nose for populist propaganda as the SVP. In that way both Swiss populism and islamist populism stimulate each other. And that is another extremely dangerous situation. Akyol is right in pointing out the power of propaganda and it’s dangers. While you are right in pointing to Muslims always playing the victim and always being self righteous when criticizing the “West”. Bertus
 

Guest - sailor
2009-12-24 18:24:01
  Mr. Akyol, How many different ways can you find to apologize and/or to come up with excuses for things Tayyip Erdogan says or does? I am really curious and will keep reading you for this!
 

Guest - Mr Goksel Doganay
2009-12-19 09:28:04
  Dr P I don’t believe in the concept of Islamism because it doesn’t exist. I am a Muslim so I believe in the religion of Islam. Your fear that radicals who want to enforce their own ideology on others is ludicrous. The people you fear are a bunch of nut-bags who have no education and support. The idea of countering radical elements of Islam by banning minarets is a step in the wrong direction. To counter any form of radicalism can only happen with the support of Muslims. By allowing them to live like human beings and opening up Islamic schools in which students receive the right education will result in a severe reduction of radicalism. The Ft hood incident was a tragedy but putting blame on Islam and Muslims is disgraceful. It is very common in the US military for personnel to turn on their colleagues no wonder as many of them have seen tremendous violence on battlefields. Soldiers seeing combat action cannot return to normal society as they suffer psychological damage. This individual may have had a psychological condition that wasn’t diagnosed. There are Muslim armies around the world and these types of incidents don’t happen, so blaming Islam is wrong.
 

Guest - dr p
2009-12-17 13:54:33
  @mr doganay: the central issue here is your steadfast refusal to believe in something called islamism, which is a coopting of islam by militants bent on enforcing their command-and-control issues on others. nobody but you denies that it exists, and credible websites (eg, jihadica) are dedicated to tracking it. the grand mufti of uzbekistan warned the us about its propagation via wahabist and salafist chaplains and clerics, but alas! he knows nothing of islam for he disagrees with you. i am very interested in ft hood, as it may (or may not) be an harbinger of further mayhem. i'm sure the ohter guests and hdn editorialists have much to learn from you as well, as they have merely been raised as muslims in muslim countries and hence deprived of your wisdom. orthodox jews and zionists in israel have turned their religiious beliefs into militant persecutory ideologies, as have hindu nationalist extremists in india and christian groups in the us; i thank you for showing me how muslims are unique in not doing so.
 

Guest - Mr Goksel Doganay
2009-12-16 18:26:54
  Dr P I reject all of your comments and your views do not reflect reality. To you Muslims and their religion is a problem and all they want to do is mayhem and criminal acts. You accuse Muslims of not integrating, however this is not true as Muslims right now are integrating. In the US particular the Muslims are truly integrated in terms of wealth and class. The Muslims are contributing to the USA getting involved in civilian life. As a significant number of Muslims differ from me, a significant number of Muslims will disagree with you. As I said before I have no interest in what happened in Ft Hood. How many times do I have to repeat to you, I don’t care and guilt by association is not on my menu. The incident has nothing to do with me, he is an American and therefore an American problem. Who knows what was going through his mind when he was committing those murders. I find it odd that you have prejudices of Islam but at the same time you lack the knowledge of distinguishing false and true Islam. Hallelujah, finally we have admission that you lack the basic knowledge. So if you lack that knowledge why are you wasting our time writing your prejudices? As I said I am not interested or have time for prejudices. I too live in a country that is secular with a constitution that believes in the concept of innocent till proven guilty which is fine with me because it fits in well within my Islamic beliefs. In my country we have laws such as freedom of association, freedom of religion, anti-discrimination laws and anti-religious and ethnic vilification laws that contribute to a harmonious society. Comparing me to an inmate is downright appalling. I know this is hard for you to believe Dr P, I am not an inmate, I am not interested in criminal activity; I don’t feel discriminated against due to my beliefs. Problems with inmates in jails are a separate issue and have nothing to do with banning minarets in Switzerland. Reading your views is like watching the same sad movie all over again.
 

Guest - dr p
2009-12-16 13:53:55
  @mr doganay: it's not that i ignore your comments, but rather that i reject your claims...as do the majority of fellow guests and a significant number of hdn editorialists - and that's fine company. the lines between religion and political ideology is thin and blurry, as witnessed by the misuse of christianity to oppress and exploit the new world indians, jews, and dissenting christians. a significant number of muslinms also differ with you, as the ft hood murderer's imam and other jihadi clerics often call for human sacrifice like aztec priests. if you wish to call that contra islam, that's your call; as harbi filth i lack the obligation, knowledge, and desire to distinguish true from false islam and so content myself to observe behaviour. i live in a secular state which is incompetent to assess creeds but is charged with assessing behaviour and punishing murder and mayhem. part of that duty is prevention within the bounds of the bill of rights, and that includes monitoring militant groups who use religious ideologies to justify atrocity. this includes pseudochristian racists, outright nazis, and yes, militant islamists. i have worked in goals and prisons for most of my career, and hear whining about alleged discrimination from inmates that sounds a lot like yours not a one ever sees his actions as in some wise contributing to his difficulties, and none have proposed behaving better as part of a solution. reading your rationalisations brings up a quote from yogi berra: it's deja vu all over again.
 

Guest - Mr Goksel Doganay
2009-12-16 05:43:43
  Dr P I think I told you this repeatedly and its seems like you completely ignore my comments. Violence commited by Muslims in the name of Islam is not condoned however Muslims shouldn't be held in contempt if one lunatic or crazy person commits a crime. That is why we have law books which outlaw violence and crimes. Whether the perpertrator is Muslim or not is irrelevant, the laws of the respective land will punish those individuals. An Islamic leader should not have to go on television and apologise. As for your concern whether preachers from the minbar condemn terrorism, I can say with certainty they do it repeatedly. Portrayal of Islamic preachers as hateful people who condone violence and terrorism is totally false. If your really concern Dr P I would ask you to actually make a trip to a sermon on Friday rather than assuming otherwise. Again I am not going to waste my time with your fear of guilt by association, so that is your problem not mine. I think I know what racism is, I do not nead a leasson from you. I just don't understand how you don't get it. Honour crimes are not sanctioned by any Islamic preacher. I told you repeatedly Honour crimes also occur in Western societies. To make matters worse, these crimes are actually sanctioned by the courts. Regardless who blesses these crimes, actually condoning of these murders results in more deaths, don't you think? You also ask for individuals who happen to be 'Islamist' who wage jihad should be deported. Well where would you like me to start to reply to your coment. You again are wrong, I told you before repeatedly Islamism doesn't exist and Islam is a religion not a political ideology. People who call it a political ideology have no idea what they are talking about, so I am not going to waste my time again with you. With respect to countries of origin, how do you deport people already born in those countries? Jihad is not a violent concept. The definition of Jihad means struggle not a holy war. Seems to me you still don't get it, and insist on your road of prejudice. This article was about bans on minarets in Switzerland, not concern about Muslims. Guilt by association to treat Muslim minorities has an eerie resemblence on how Europeans treated the Jews during the 1930's and I have no time to stick around to see the end of the story.
 

Guest - dr p
2009-12-15 15:24:53
  @mr doganay: yours is a remarkable ability for confusing ethicity and race; islam is a religion, muslims are believers (who choose to) of various ethnicities (to which they are born), and so genetic talk is all nonsense. domestic violence is universal and vile; murdering children like palestina and threatening those like rifqa for religious honour is vileness of a different sort, as god's command and blessing are invoked. jews protecting themselves against racial intimidation is good; jews using the aclu to to force an anti-religious (vs merely secularist) agenda invites well-deserved reproach. muslims who want only to be good citizens are a boon; islamists who wage jihad and behave obnoxiously are a bane and should be deported. do you get it yet?
 

Guest - dr p
2009-12-15 14:51:49
  @mr doganay: let's add behaviour in af-pak to the guilt by association; were it not for the words of mullahs praising this behaviour and all the allahu-akbars whilst carrying out atrocities, your thesis of racism and islamophobia would be more credible. however, this is not the case, and islamist aggression - which is rarely if ever condemned from the minbar - raises the spectre of similar behaviour in europe and america despite the multitude of examples of good muslim citizens in each. this is in keeping with islamism, which cannot build but can only divide and destroy. you doubtless are correct that racism plays a role in switzerland and elsewhere, but you again fail to distinguish between phobia and rational fear. railing ecclesiastical hatemongering nincompoops like fred phelps are roundly condemned from all responsible (and some less responsible) christian pulpits; i see no public clamour from responsible minbars against islamist militancy. like it or not, islamism has left a taint on muslims like zionism has on jews (as long as we're making comparisons); like it or not, failure of responsible believers to confront atrocious behaviour contributes to that taint; like it or not, in all too many cases, perception is reality. that's the way it is, and the world is not going to change for you or me.
 

Guest - Mr Goksel Doganay
2009-12-15 14:36:13
  Dr P I think I explained to you in my previous comments that honour killings are not just a Muslim problem but also a Western problem. I also explained to you that domestic violence is a global problem and in many Western countries men get lesser sentences once they prove they killed for passion due to extramarital affairs. However you still choose to ignore this problem and only think that domestic violence only occurs within Muslim societies. I find this opinion quite appalling to say the least. Do you think Muslims have a genetic susceptibility to domestic violence? I suggest you go and read your facts before you make racist assumptions. Do you think domestic violence is not a problem in countries like US, Australia, Canada, UK, France? Do you think violence against women is a light matter? If you think that women don’t killed in Western countries by men think again. I do think many countries in Muslim countries do have problems with freedom of speech, but what are the benchmarks? If you base it upon Western benchmarks I would agree with you, but if you think that there is no freedom of speech problems in many Western countries well then again think again. Indonesians are very tolerant to Christians despite the presence of refugees. But there are also Muslim refugees in Indonesia but this is not related to freedom of expression. Indonesian Christians are not targeted and being killed by mobs. If Muslims are going to court to fight for their rights in US and Canada I applaud them. If Jews can fight anti-Semitism in court, then the Muslims will fight anti-Islamic inspired hate speeches in Western media.
 

Guest - Mr Goksel Doganay
2009-12-15 14:20:33
  Mehmet I myself reside in Australia and am fully aware of so called accusations levelled against Muslims in Western society. I am not aware of the research conducted on Muslims in Europe, but I would seriously question the integrity of that research and its research methodology. I find it unbelievable that a person will agree to conduct an interview and admit he has anti-social tendencies such as violence and mis-orderly conduct. So rather than blindly believing in these research projects I suggest you have a very good read and question its methodology and results. I totally disagree with you with respect to Muslims not integrating or believing as Islam as a peaceful religion. Many Muslims that do live in European and Western countries are third generation. I can give a perfect example within my family. We all are first generation born in Australia and none of my relatives and friends have any interest in violence or militant tendencies. I can only go on past experience rather than theories and am inclined to think that the Swiss ban on minarets are based upon racism of the other as was previously experience with Jews rather than a fear that is due to Muslim arrogance. 400,000 people are not going to change the weather in Switzerland let alone wreck havoc on Switzerland. Also I find it abhorrent that you relate problems of Muslims in one country to other countries worldwide. You conveniently vilify Muslims by suggesting that there is a link between the Muslims in the Philippines and Europe and hence in your mind Muslims are guilty of association. I also disagree with you that most people in the West don’t view Islam as a religion of Peace, again I think it is dangerous to assume. Your attack on Islamic preaches as hate-preaching Mullahs disgusting. I can tell you from my experience I have never witnessed a hate speech on a Friday sermon by a Imam. Many Imams are from overseas and they have never made any hate speeches. I can assure you that Muslims are smart enough to not ever condone any hate speeches. In Turkey the problem with vilifying Christians is related to the so called secular system. The system isn’t secular enough to allow for freedom of religion. But this isn’t just related to Christians but also the majority of Muslims.
 

Guest - dr p
2009-12-15 13:59:41
  @mehmet: spot on. i have had muslim acqauintances in the us for close to 50 years, and have not seen the militancy then that i see now. jews and catholics faced real discrimination here, but contributed to our society whilst protecting their own cultures; ie, they integrated. all immigrants faced some modicum of discrimination, but they still integrated until now. they previous groups came with a desire to integrate; the ones you describe and others i see come to exploit. gone seems to be the idea of immigrant as grateful guest of a magnanimous host, replaced by the entitled demander with a chip on his shoulder and gun in his pocket, who came to be placated rather than to contribute. i'm sure that muslim immigrants in europe have legitimate grievances, but, i fear, that is part and parcel of being an immigrant and is exacerbated by a refusal to accept the host culture as it is. it is they who chose to immigrate, and that role is best played by an humble petitioner rather than jihadi wacko. in fine, the majority of their wounds are self-inflicted, and will continue to be so until they stop banging their heads against walls for the great feeling one gets when one stops.
 

Guest - Mehmet
2009-12-14 21:35:02
  @ Mr Goksel Doganay Isn't it the case that Christians living in Turkey are seen as a threat in Turkey? Just ask the army about their definition of internal and external threats; just read the text books in school; just remember what some ministers said less than 3 years ago about the threat posed by Christian missionaries. Yes, there are third generation Muslims in Europe and serious research has shown that they are more militant, less tolerant and more likely to support violence in the name of supposedly peaceful Islam than even their parents are. That is what we do not call integration, but separation and parallel cultures. Add to it the arrogance and chauvinism of many young Muslims and you can perfectly see why especially young people and women in Switzerland supported the ban. In addition the rise in antisemitic violence in several countries (UK, Germany, France) is based to a large extent on acts committed by these supposedly integrated Muslims. It may be difficult for Muslims to understand that most people in the West do not exactly view Islam as a religion of peace, but it is the truth and you better face up to it and do something against it. Muslims have for too long preferred to be quiet when it comes to violence in Darfur, Yemen, Indonesia, the Philippines etc. Has any Muslim country acted decisivly against hate-preaching mullahs? Even so called secular countries teach their children at home and at school that non-Muslims cannot be good citizen. Or how else would you assess the most recent polls in Turkey on such topics?
 

Guest - dr p
2009-12-14 17:47:29
  @mr doganay: my "problem" is not with islam per se, but with behaviours associated with its practitioners, one of which is the honour killings far more prominent with increased muslim immigrants. coming from the land of the hatfields and mccoys i am aware of family feuding; its increase in britian and germany, along with high-profile cases in the us, cannot be so lightly dismissed. this is similar with my "problem" with c.a.i.r. and its canadian equivalent, abusing the courts to shut down free speech; by the way, in an earlier post i noted my disapproval all "hate speech" laws which do not involve incitement, including holocaust denial. free speech should be free; our founding fathers recognised to right to go through life unoffended. per indonesia, the christian refugees i know would take issue with the house report; even so, one out of how many countries is a rather poor track record, wouldn't you say?
 

Guest - Mr Goksel Doganay
2009-12-14 16:14:22
  Dr P since you use the term Islamists interchangeably with Muslims so I am going to assume you have issues with Muslims. Honour killings are not an Islamic phenomenon but an international one. Honour killings also occur in many Western nations that aren’t actually Muslim but by Westerners themselves. I’ll give you a perfect example in Australia. In the Supreme Court many men are up for crimes of killing their wives. Many have received a lesser punishment such as manslaughter after they have proven they were provoked such as alleged affairs. Now the way I see it, this also falls under my definition of honour killings. So before you accuse Muslims of condoning Honour killings I urge you to do your research and see that domestic violence and honour killings are actually a lot more common in Western society than you think. I am a firm believer of Freedom of speech, but this cannot be used as a pretext to vilify anyone including Muslims. Many Europeans have used this as a pretext as a way to vilify Muslims and their religious practice rather than actually believing in it. In Europe, Jews and Christians are actually protected by law from vilification and this doesn’t extend to Muslims despite 38 million of them living in Europe. Holocaust denial is also illegal in many of these European countries and I do not see anyone crying about freedom of speech then. So my argument is that it seems to be ok to vilify in Muslims but not Jews or Christians which I find appalling. I do not support any form of religious or ethnic vilification. As for your lofty claim that not one single Islamic country that respects freedom of speech (by Islamic you mean Muslim countries). Well I suggest you read the freedom house report and you will find that there is one, Indonesia. Indonesia is defined as a free country that respects freedom of speech. So yeah I suggest you read the report rather than making sweeping generalizations. As for the Swiss ban on minarets, well it doesn’t take a genius to see why the minaret bans where put in place. I don’t demonize the Swiss or hate them; in fact I think the Swiss system is a good one that provides a haven for many businessmen. However that does not excuse them by allowing the restriction of religious freedoms. How do I know that this isn’t the start of something sinister?
 

Guest - dr p
2009-12-14 14:05:21
  @mr doganay: let's see, what people might fear about islamists: honour killings (brit police have special units to investigate these), militancy, terrorism a la ft hood. do i fear most muslims? no, as they are like most christians, jews, etc, in that they wish to quietly live their lives unmolested. do i believe that there are fifth colums amongst them, as amongst other groups? i know that there are, and am tired of c.a.i.r. and other rightsmongers trying to cripple internal security and silence free speech - that i fear more than the bogeymen. there is not one single islamic country which respects free speech, whereas our constitution enshrines it: just as jews could not silence fascists marching through skokie despite of the offence of it, neither should c.a.i.r. and others have the right to ban cartoons and unfavourable comments about monstrous behaviour simply because it offends their sensibilities. this is not phobia (irrational fear), but legitimate concern. has anyone seen any articles in which those who voted for the ban gave their reasons therefor? before you demonise the swiss people, perhaps you should ask them why they do what they do; of course, you risk learning something and having your own biases challenged, so i won't hold my breath.
 

Guest - Katie
2009-12-12 23:25:29
  Once again Muslims whingeing about the 'non Muslims' dislike of Islamic symbols in a NON ISLAMIC country. Why is it they never think or respect, other peoples rights ? Well done Switzerland, you who voted have every right to voice your opinion / dislike & get something done about it. Why should you listen to that wailing when it does not belong in your country ? Time for the rest of Europe to speak up too !
 

Guest - Mr Goksel Doganay
2009-12-12 10:05:38
  Dr P, the minaret ban in Switzerland is not a wakeup call but a clear case of religious discrimination. What Muslim behaviour do you have a problem with Dr P? Arguing there is a problem when there is none is disgraceful. Muslims are different and there is many disagreements, they may not like gays, they may be protective of their women, they may eat different foods, they may have different skin colour, but these cannot be used as a pretext to discriminate. Many Muslims in Europe are third generation. They have been in Europe for more than 50 years, speak the local languages, pay their taxes, get an education and work including Switzerland. Do you want integration? Well here you go this is a perfect example of integration. Again you are generalizing with respect to Christian minorities in Muslim countries. Iraq and Egypt are both secular countries and both these regimes are supported by the US. Many Christians have been ministers in both countries Tariq Aziz comes to mind in Iraq who was a respected minister in his own country. Whatever problems the Christian minorities have in Egypt and Iraq has nothing to do with Switzerland. You claim there is a climate of fear in Switzerland due to Muslim’s and their behaviour. Do you think this is a joke? How can 400,000 people who have been in Switzerland for almost 50 years be a threat to Swiss society? Are the Swiss afraid when they trade with Muslim countries? Are the Swiss afraid when they make business deals with Saudi Kings? It seems to me it is convenient to blame Muslims when it suits yourself but not so when it is against your interests. Oh I am not going to waste my time with your fear of Jihadis, Dhimma’s and Jizya. I have no time to reflect with fear. I have no fear Dr P. The difference between you and me is you have too many fears whereas I do not. If you want fear to rule your life go ahead, but do not expect others to be like yourself engulfed by fear.
 

Guest - dr p
2009-12-11 14:04:45
  @mr doganay: i recall no post of mine villifying muslims or islam per se, nor supporting religious restrictions; please tell me where you believe i did. the muslim communities in europe face discrimination only in part due to european intolerance; muslim behaviours at home and abroad have contributed to the problem, whether we wish to believe so or not - self-reflection is always a virtue. however, the christians in egypt and iraq face murder, and depredations unexperienced by muslims in europe, and have not rights but suffrance - and precious little of it. i recall no poster suggesting that the minaret ban is good and will contribute to religious rights in muslim countries; rather, the consensus seems to be that it was a poor decisio (eg, my last post) resulting from a climate of fear. i am not a bigot to suggest that jihadis and other such yahoos have contributed to that climate, and that dhimma and jizya stink. what do you think of those? if i had my druthers i would have handled the situation as did france, with building codes and aesthetic regulations rather than an outright ban; the decision of the swiss court remains to be seen. the intelligent muslim observer would see the ban vote as a bow shot and wakeup call for self-reflection and housecleaning.
 

Guest - Mr Goksel Doganay
2009-12-10 18:35:45
  Dr P I have never said there is no restriction or persecution in Muslim countries of their Christian minorities. However I did mention that not all Muslim countries are the same and many Muslim countries do have Christian minorities with full rights. The Christians of Iraq and Egypt might not think their respective countries as the garden of Eden, however the Christian community in those countries are a lot older than the Muslim ones in Europe. So before you make a sweeping generalization, the Christian community in many Muslim countries have survived for a long time and this in itself explains there is a certain amount of freedom even if it isn't ideal. The difference between me and you however is you have used this forum to attack and vilify Muslims and also condone restriction of religous practice. I am in no way saying Muslim countries are the best countries, but the ban of minarets in Switzerland by a vote is a serious mark on the Swiss. The brainchild of the minaret ban may have been of Turkish origin. But this does not excuse the Swiss for their intolerance and will not contribute to peace and harmony. Targetting Muslims in Europe will not increase religious freedoms in Muslim countries. This ban affects local Muslims and linking it with Muslim countries is outright stupid to say the least. The Muslim community in Switzerland will keep growing and the minaret ban will not stop growth.
 

Guest - dr p
2009-12-09 18:20:51
  @mr doganay: "Restrictions on Christians in Muslim countries are a wide misconception. Christians in many Muslim countries enjoy wide ranging freedoms -" yes, i'm sure the copts in egypt and assyrians in iraq think they live in eden...oh yes, then there are all the ones that didn't die (they only thought they did, or the zionists told them they did; mrdogan said they didn't) in darfur. the connexion between the apparent tu quoque against which you protest and the swiss situation is obvious: islamist behaviours contribute to a climate of fear of islam as an whole, fairly or no. the ban was the brainchild of a swiss of turkish origin (see today's hdn), and it is not inconceivable that refugees from parts east also support it; yes, that does not make it right, but again, that is not to say that there is no cause for concern and dismissing such as brainless paranoia is counterproductive.
 

Guest - Mr Goksel Doganay
2009-12-09 17:18:42
  Brian make up your mind you either agree that the minaret ban is either good or bad. You seem to lump all Muslim states together and assume there is no religious freedom in these countries. How will banning minarets open the Saudi’s eyes to religious freedom? Are you condoning religious restrictions in the West due to so called religious practice in Muslim countries? This is a tiring argument that deserves no merit. Restrictions on Christians in Muslim countries are a wide misconception. Christians in many Muslim countries enjoy wide ranging freedoms. I would ask you to do your research before you make widespread generalizations. Switzerland is supposed to a bastion for religious freedom; however the targeting of Muslims by banning minarets is a step in the wrong direction and a bad example of religious intolerance. This article is not arguing about what is going on in Muslim countries but what has just happened in Switzerland. Confusing two different types of countries misses the point. Why should Muslims be guilty by association in Switzerland? You argue for Western values yet you disregard two types of freedom here; freedom of association and freedom of religion. Brian this referendum will have no effect in the Muslim world in terms of religious freedom. This referendum has targeted Muslims in Switzerland and has nothing do with Saudi Arabia or the Middle East.
 

Guest - dr p
2009-12-09 16:12:22
  @canuck: oh yes, the cartoon thing again. the fact that, whether he would have authorised such behaviour or not (who am i to judge?), muhammad's name is repeatedly invoked by the jihadis amidst and in defence of their atrocities; that this is not considered invoking hatred by abusing his name and religion via associating both with hateful acts suggests that the law in this regard is indeed a nose of wax. how many islamists have been hoisted by this legal petard, or have your courts (and., god forbid, ours) created yet another class of "special people" given leave to do their work with impunity? if islam is a religions of peace ( i do not opine either way), then where is the outrage from other muslims at islamists' coopting of their faith? i hear none, perhaps because there isn't any, or that what is there is being drowned out by pc twaddle. ps: i stand corrected re: mr levant's first name, for which i thank you.
 

Guest - canuck
2009-12-09 15:44:36
  First of all, his name is EZRA Levant, not Ira (Ira wrote Rosemary's baby). And yes, he did incite hatred by reprinting the Danish cartoons. We in Canada, take offense to a cartoon that belittles and demonizes an entire religion. It is exactly what keeps us from having the race riots that are too common in US high schools and streets.
 

Guest - Brian
2009-12-09 15:03:23
  I don't always agree with Mustafa but in this instance I do. Having this referendum in the first place was a bad idea and an attack on religious freedom. Some people may say, as Mustafa alluded to in his article, that this is a backlash that is fully deserved given the lack of religious freedom in many Muslim states. This may be, on the surface a bad day for religious freedom, but on the bright side, it may open the eyes of those people, such as the Saudis and they will understand that religious freedom is not a one way street. I think that generally the mostly Christian "west" has been a bastion for religious freedom whereas the middle eastern countries who are Muslim have been the bastion of religious oppression. There is a lesson to be learned here by Muslim nations. If you protest about the restriction of your religious freedom you must look in your own backyard before making a comment. Perhaps, (no, NOT perhaps), I mean most definitely, if Muslim states afforded the same freedom to Christians in ALL their countries, we would never have had this vote in the first place. So, let us all live in peace together, and there is nothing more beautiful than the wonderful architectural structure of a minaret rising into the sky. As the Quran states. "Let my religion be my religion and your religion be your religion"
 

Guest - dr p
2009-12-09 14:34:40
  @canuck: the term "hate speech" is a nose of wax, and too often means "any speech i don't like." ira levant and his magazine never incited hatred or violence, but merely pointed out the sort of concerns raised by other posters at hdn. islamist pacs and your own courts had a kosher feast on his limbs lopped off on the pc procrustean bedstead of liberal bunkhouse logic; despite the courts eventually ruling in his favour, he was left bankrupt. he had to deal with your though-police and wade through tonnes of pc red tape before your court system "did the right thing" and finally respected the english common law undergirding of both of our political systems. financially and emotionally, the jihadis gave levant the nick berg treatment. this does not sound like the making of an "harmonious and free society" to me. if i had my way, the minaret question would have been addressed through building codes and aesthetic/historical criteria rather than an outright ban, whcih i see as needlessly provocative; nonetheless one can hardly deny that there is an islamist fifth column that bears watching, and all of the pc incantations, mantras, and gibberish will not make it go away. at least in the us, quasi-christian movements with a penchant for fiery rhetoric and firearms are watched, so should the jihadis. one should also stop demonising those who distrust islamists and wish to protect their freedoms as bigoted paranoids; i'm sure that mr levant and the berg family would be happy to disabuse any pc sloganeer who wishes to enquire.
 

Guest - Copycat
2009-12-08 20:22:32
  I will not show which side of the argument I support, but I want to quote a sentence by Mr Goksel Doganay, because it’s too important to be buried under so much talk. Mr. Doganay said (capitalization and improvement of Mr. Doganay’s English are mine): “WE AS MUSLIMS WILL BUILD MOSQUES ALL AROUND THE WORLD INCLUDING MARS AND WE WILL ALSO BUILD MINARETS INCLUDING SWITZERLAND [WHETHER] YOU LIKE IT OR NOT.” Let us help keep this brilliant idea afloat, which sums it all up.
 

Guest - canuck
2009-12-08 18:20:40
  dr p, no one supresses free speach in Canada, unless it is used to incite hatred. As far as my points are concerned, I am looking at the situation as someone that believes that all religions and cultures are equals. This is the same view that the Canadian courts and constitution uphold. It is exactly this approach that allows a harmonious and free society, as the one in Canada, to exist. When Europeans view other religions and cultures as inferior to their own, it allows those cultures and religions to be exploited by radicals. This does not lend itself to a creation of a peaceful and free society. This is exactly where Europeans have made mistakes in their immigration policies. If people do not feel as though they are welcome into society, then they act and think as though they are outcasts. These immigrants then start to cling to their cultures and their religions, because that is all that they have. They become ghetto-ized and quite often end up being a burden to the society/country that they live in. The cycle just deepens when they feel that more of their freedoms are being threatened. Only through greater freedoms for all citizens, can a society become harmonious and peaceful. We understand this Canada, Europe will eventually learn the hard way.
 

Guest - dr p
2009-12-08 17:38:07
  @messrs doganay & canuck: you are half correct in your assessments re: racism and religious intolerance,neither of which i have defended; these accusations are mere canards rather than thoughtful criticisms. what you are not addressing are legitimate fears of those whose view of islam is coloured by what they see in the media, which is ugly. as for my knowledge of islam, i work with muslims and don't feel threatened; then again, i am not forced to not eat at my desk during ramadan, have no muezzin's cry disturbing my sleep, and need not fear being gunned down for being a christian, etc ad nauseam. i sincerely doubt that swiss will experience these things if a few more minarets are built; but, mr canuck, ask your fellow canadian ira levant about so-called canadian tolerance and harmony and how the islamic lobby abuses the courts to suppress free speech in the great white north; this the swiss might fear. finally, i need an advanced degree in islamic theology to comment about muslim behaviour like mr doganay should have the same in israeli history and christian theology before he confuses race and religion during his hystrionic rants? not. i have not such degree, but have read enough about it (pro & con) to know that i prefer a secular republic to sharia, and that eternal vigilance is the price of freedom..both of and from religion.
 

Guest - SenBen
2009-12-08 16:11:11
  Mr Doganay, are u stupid or only ignorant? I think u are so deep in your fantasies that u didnt read my comments: I wrote more than onetime that i dont like any religion. I am an Atheist. I can only laugh about people who has a fictive friend called Allah, God or Jahwe. The difference is that the Allah friends havent discovered the Enlightment. Yeah, i am intolerant against a religion which brought nothing positive to my country Turkey. Mr Doganay, what else do u need to understand? Instead of building mosques who are only tools from the turkish AKP we need schools for the second and third generation of the muslim immigrants. I think u have no idear whats going on in countries like Germany, France, Holland , Austria, Belgium etc etc. This kids arnt aible to speak the motherlanguage neither the second language. But they are aible to pray. A great advantage, wow. The Europians are impressed. Mr Doganay u are to deep bounded in your islamic opinion that u have missed a reality check.? Freedom of religion? Why shoud a free society tolerate a religion which spreads intolerant and anachronistic values? Can u explain me that? Can u explain me the advantage of Islam Mr Doganay? What did the Islam brought good things to the world? Instead of pointing the finger to me explain us here why u love the Islam and why it is a good thing for the human beeings. You wrote so many nonsense things about people like me. But u never wrote something about the benefits of islam. Lets start Mr Doganay, lets try to evengalize us. Islam is good, beacause... ? We are waiting!
 

Guest - canuck
2009-12-08 15:56:09
  You guys really don't get it. It's not about Islam or Christianity or Judaism or whatever other religion.And, its certainly not about saving the architectural integrity of the Swiss nation. It's about racial, cultural and religous intolerance. There will never be a real peace in Europe, because Europeans are intolerant of others. They still have the mentality of the middle ages. This would work well if Europe was one homogenous society, but it isn't. It's a good thing that there are Turks, Arabs and Africans in Europe or the Europeans would have to go back to hating each other.
 

Guest - Mr Goksel Doganay
2009-12-08 15:39:51
  Dr P your views are just as lame and pathetic as any other racist who have decided to pop up on this blog. This article was about a minaret ban that was voted by the Swiss ban. The author has correctly pointed out this is a clear case of discrimination on the basis of religious practice. Yet you have used this blog as an opportunity to vent your intolerant hatred of Muslims and Islam. You have mentioned Jihadism, Islamism, Palestinian terrorism, Zionist terrorism, Sharia laws, honour killings, forced conversions, persecutions against Jews and Christians. What a miserable human being you are. You believe in Western values but neglect a key concept of freedom of association. By your stupid criteria you decide to blame 1.57 billion Muslims guilt by association. So do you legitimise bad behaviour on the basis on race and religion? Why don’t you ask what Muslims want? I know it is hard for you to believe dr P but Muslims want to live in peace and harmony all around the world including Switzerland. You demand me to condemn some so called acts. My response to you is I am not a spokesperson for Muslims in Europe or anywhere in the world. If a person commits a crime even in the name of Islam, it is not my problem dr P. It is a police matter and I would trust the police to take care of it. I am not going to condemn anything just to satisfy your insecurity of Islam. You call me an ayatollah yet you think you seem to know what Islam is all about. If you know Islam so much what Islamic knowledge do you have? Have you been to an accredited Islamic college and received scholarship? Your very contradictory in your views as well, you claim that it is up to Muslims on how they are perceived yet you expect them to treat you good when you don’t respect them.
 

Guest - Michel
2009-12-08 15:09:29
  Christian western Europe was built against islamic east. Political western Europe will be built against eastern poltical islam. As Stalin was used to say, islam is only "useful idiot" of European nation building.
 

Guest - dr p
2009-12-08 14:25:18
  nobody is addressing the basic problem; ie who calls the (figurative) shots in islam? there is no general assembly or magisterium or sobor for us benighted gavurs to consult, and so one has humane live-and-let-live muslims like ameer and leila angel on the one hand, and ayatollah doksanay on the other. how do i know who is right when judging between human beings and jihadis? as mr doksanay demands of senben, i demand of mr doksanay and his ilk: let us infidels hear you loudly condemn jidhadis and islamism, eschew obnoxious behaviour, and stop tripping over yourselves to support palestinian terrorism whilst hypocritically condemning zionist terrorism; start demanding an end to sharia, honour killings, introcision, forced conversions, persecutions of christians and jews, blaming all of your faults and foibles on jews, and all of the barbarities westerners find offensive - which might impact on how (rightly or wrongly) muslims are perceived and treated. in other words, stop demanding respect and start earning it.
 

Guest - ameer_r2
2009-12-08 11:12:01
  See:http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=a6kHZEWw7yCo# An article which succinctly summarizes the issue rather than going on and on about the faults of Turkey and some other Muslim countries as well as Bill's attack on the basic intolerance for the other that Islam promotes. Who is the other desribed inthe Qur'an? Those who were out to destroy Islam even though every effort was made to promote peace until war was the only choice. Islam invites all those who believe in one God to come together in opposing all doctrines that negate His existence and Lordship. Those who persist in demonizing Islam and Muslims for their own agenda only promote division and hatred. When power hungry leaders like Sarkozy take advantage of the anti-immigrant mentality to close the gates of Europe to the "terrible Turk" what can we expect from the ignorant masses? The obvious benefit of Mustafa Akyol's article has been to bring to the surface the views of those "enlightened" who want Turkey to act according to some European values despite European hypocristy in implementing them when it comes to its Muslims and to reject Islamic values which they consider unfit for a Europe open to every immorality in the name of freedom. Muslim nations have tried to maintain their culture by keeping out the negative aspects of European culture and to limit the efforts of those who have financial and poltical backing of those who want to demonize Islam in favor of a Christianity which is being abandoned by a large number of Europeans. Muslims certainly need to be reformed in many ways to act according to the best that Islam promotes bu tnot be judged by those who want to demonize it.
 

Guest - Mr Goksel Doganay
2009-12-08 08:52:14
  Canuck very well written but may I also suggest Australia. I don't want to start up competition between Australia and Canada. But Australia is really an example on how different communitites can live harmoniously. Australia's 30 % population is born overseas and includes up to 180 races including differring religion. Australia has a vibrant multicultural society that is tolerant of all beliefs including the Islamic one. Europe has been the bedrock of racism for a very long time and it is where a dangerous form of racism took hold in the 1930's which led to the deaths of many Jews. SenBen your views are pathetic and have totally disregarded what I have written. A mosque is a place of worship the same way a Church is to Christians and Synagogue is to Jews. Comparing Mosques to Schools is a disgrace. No Muslim is asking for the building of Mosques to replace schools. This comment of yours just goes to show how intollerant and ignorant you are. I have issued you a challenge to say I don't like Islam or Muslims. Yet you have not risen to the occassion but still insisted on your vent anti-Islamic hatred. You claim to be an admirer of Western values yet you disregard one of freedom of religion. Who are you trying to fool SenBen? You are not a Westerner and never will be.
 

Guest - Zonkey
2009-12-07 19:02:51
  Dear Mr Goksel Doganay - this topic is about how to establish a balance between people's basic rights to pursue their religion without encroaching too far upon the equal rights of people who don't adhere to that same, or any other, religion. If you read my comments you will see that I am uncomfortable with the Swiss referendum. However, I do understand how the result may have occurred and it is because of the prevailing attitude of people with views such as yours. After making the comment that you will build minarets wherever you please irrespective of the views of others, it is totally disingenous of you to attempt to reclaim the moral high ground here. If one day you need a lift to the mosque, I will gladly offer you a lift. But don't ask me to respect your beliefs, its not part of any deal anyone has signed up to ... OK ?
 

Guest - SenBen
2009-12-07 17:57:01
  Mr Doganay, if u want we can talk in german, thats my motherlanguage, i havnt practiced english since some years. But my english seems good enough that you understood my main intenstions: hold the islam in his borders! Islam and western values does not match because the western values are based on the freedom of the individuum, the islam is based on the values of the islamic ummah. It is not a religion for a calm room, it its a handbook for every inch of your life with the ambitions to missionare and controll the society. As long as this islam havnt seen a reform or modernism i will not accept this religion. and Mr Doganay, i am a muslim , on the paper and thats enough. I show since 35 years my softskills here in Germany Mr Doganay. I act like a lawyer. I must protect my turkish people everytime when i talk with germans about islam and immigration problems. I do it because i am able to differnce but i am tired to protect conservative muslims with anachronistic opinions. How anachronistic are u Mr Doganay? Do u believe in stones and have a fivtive lord? I shoud accept non existing things because u believe in that? Srry, i will sure not.
 

Guest - Leilani Angel
2009-12-07 17:52:01
  Islam is NOT the enemy and as such, people--Eastern, Western, rich poor, yellow, red, whatever--should not be declaring war against it. The problem lies within a small sect of radicals who interpret the Qur'an to suit their means and go on a path of violence rather than one of understanding. (Radicals exist in Christianity, too--for reference, check out my countryman Fred Phelps and his family/followers, who protested at soldiers' funerals because they were "immoral defenders of an immoral country".) The problem lies within the interpretation of the texts: one might have a moderate, peaceful interpretation while his brother might choose the extremist one. That being said, with regards to those who do react in an histrionic manner after this Swiss minaret ban issue, history is cyclical: the oppressed becomes the oppressor. Despite some strides in cultural understanding, by and large Muslims are still (unfairly) perceived to be 'backwards' or 'savages' whereas other religions are seen as 'enlightened' (Buddhism) or 'elite' (Christianity). This is the bone of contention for many Muslims,a source of resentment. Do some Muslims' actions seem barbaric? Yes, but that's just a tiny fraction...a minnow in an ocean. As a whole, Muslims are just like Christians and Jews and Buddhists and Atheists. We all have our differences in beliefs, traditions, and rituals--thus our penchant to brand ourselves as 'the Other'--but at the core, we are first and foremost human beings. http://findingandromache.blogspot.com
 

Guest - canuck
2009-12-07 16:31:01
  If you Europeans want to a functioning, harmonious society come to Canada and take a look around. We don't have any bans on minarets, burqas, yamukas, crosses, sihk ceremonial knives or anything else. Somehow, it seems to work very well here. Oh yeah, maybe it's because we treat everyone like they are human beings and give them the respect and freedoms that they desire. Europe is a hotbed of rascist discrimination. Why would anyone want to live there? We have Italian Canadian friends that moved to Geneva last year and they said that " Switzerland is great, except for the Swiss". Not only does Canada have a more harmoniuos, freer society than Europe, our standard of living is higher.
 

Guest - Mr Goksel Doganay
2009-12-07 15:49:18
  Zonkey and SenBen I would ask of you to stick to what this article is about rather than venting your anti-Islamic hatred. SenBen looks like you have difficulty with the English language. I have labelled certain people intolerant due to their opinions on this site. They have themselves expressed anti-Islamic writings not me. But also I think they are dishonest because they on one hand believe in universal values such as freedom of religion but when it comes to Muslims this belief is thrown out the window. You have a high regard for Swiss society and this in your opinion give a green light for the Swiss to express their intolerance. You also claim that practising Muslims should ease the concerns of the Swiss. What concerns do they have SenBen? Do you think banning minarets will enhance their concerns? You claim that Muslims don’t have soft skills they only know how to yell. Really SenBen do you have soft skills? What soft skills are you talking about? I would also like to note that you do not speak for the West. You are not a spokesperson for the West. Do not confuse what is going in differing countries. The banning of a minaret is a step in the wrong direction which has the potential to alienate Muslims. You claim that Islam is very detrimental to Europe without offering any evidence. You claim to be a Muslim yet you ask Muslims to stop believing in their religion once they reside in the West. How convenient? You also claim to speak for Turks and Muslims. Well as a Muslim, I can say that you do not speak for Muslims and stop preaching about your hideous views. Your views will not contribute to a peaceful society but rather increase tension. As for your question who would live longer? I don’t have a crystal ball and cannot predict the future but I can say that you will never be successful wherever you live.
 

Guest - SenBen
2009-12-07 15:44:32
  i have an advice to all western / europian locals: fight the islam in your societies where u can. This religion is not tolerant, peacefull and constructive. If u want to bring progress to your societies try to convince the young muslim immigrants that a good education is more important than a mosque ! Mr Doagany , we all knew your islamic intentions , i primise u something. The western societies looks weak when they allow muslims many things but dont overstretch it. They are stronger as u believe. Its time to stop the islamic movement. The enlightment wasnt made to tolerate an intolerant religion. As a turk i woud never finger point Mr Akyol, i woud reflect whats going on in my society. We have enough to do with ourselves.
 

Guest - Jen L. Jones
2009-12-07 15:11:49
  To receive such an outburst of ad hominen remarks I must have hit a raw nerve. To all who resorted to personal attacks against me, I say, "Methinks thou dost protest too much."
 

Guest - dr p
2009-12-07 14:23:59
  @jen l jones, bill, reddhogg & zonkey - bravo!@mr doganay: sometime before the parousia please show some manners and abstain from hystrionic abusive ad hominems and stick to the discussion at hand - just as you demand of others. there is no universal right of immigration; ie immigrants are guests and should behave accordingly; sedition and treason are not tolerated anywhere, including switzerland; countries have a right to restrict immigration and monitor immigrants for fifth column activities (takkiya, anyone?); countries have a right to maintain their cultural heritage; emigrants can choose to immigrate to countries congenial to their lifestyles and avoid those which are not; immigrants are entitled to basic human rights, which exclude the right to demand that the hosts bend over backwards to accommodate their demands. nonchristian and nonprotestant christian immigrants faced prejudice when coming to the usa, but eventually earned mainstream status by paqtriotic behaviour, hard work, and clean living; they were thankful to leave the oppressions of their erstwhile lands and contributed to their new home - they did not demand, threaten, and kill. whilst switzerland's decision makes me uncomfortable, i have an hard time merely writing it off to a bigoted dislike for dark skin and garlic, and find it easy to attribute it to the clearly manifested behaviours of the islamic community which are incompatible with western civilisation ( i need not enumerate). you specifically, as with the islamic world in general, seem remarkably untrammeled by a sense of self-reflection, never pausing for a moment to ask yourself what it is about muslims and islam that westerners might find disconcerting; rather, you take the reflexive option and merely accuse and abuse. then again, you could always write it off to those elders of zion, the goldstein of the islamist world.
 

Guest - Major Pat
2009-12-07 12:38:32
  Thank you Mr. Doganay. The last sentence of your last comment reveals you to be the thuggish islamist cultural imperialist that most of us knew already.
 

Guest - Zonkey
2009-12-07 11:25:40
  Ah good. Mr Goksel Doganay finally shows his true colours - '' we will build mosues all around the world and even on Mars .... whether you like it or not'' !!!! This, everybody, is why the far right in Switzerland succeeded in persuading the majority of the population, probably including many of their own immigrant population, to say enough is enough to this very aggressive peddaling of a medieval superstition belief with all its attendant oppressive and unpleasant issues. Simple.
 

Guest - Mr Goksel Doganay
2009-12-07 09:13:56
  Mr Jones you are flirting with the issue and talking crap. Can you please spare the crap and talk facts and the truth. You are very contradictory in your beliefs and have no idea what you are talking about. The Saudi government is not entirely a Islamic regime, it is an arrangement they have with clerics in their country. Baathist Syria and Saddam Hussein's Iraq were not Islamic regimes but secular ones. These two regimes have been known to crack down on any Islamic parties which coincidently support Democracy. So before you make incorrect claims go and get your facts right these regimes were not due to Islamic intolerance. If you are so concerned about torture in these countries why don't you complain of the Judicial system in the US. The US has a terrible record with Black inmates in custody, why don't you protest about that? Racism by the Judicial authorities in the US is mind boggling and I find it very creative. How stupid is this, you find a person guilty because of their skin colour and yet 100 years later you exonerate them. How convenient? Why couldn't you just exonerate them 100 years ago? Your contradiction reaches a zenith when you claim human rights is universal yet you find religious practice and worship not under the same category. To you minarets are a tower with bricks and mortar. You are such a miserable human being I would respect you more if you said I do not like Islam or Muslims. Yet you find it within you to come onto this site and give mumbled reason's why minarets should be banned in Switzerland. Let me tell you something Mr James, we as Muslims will build mosques all around the world including Mars and we will also build minarets including Switzerland if you like it or not.
 

Guest - verana
2009-12-07 05:59:39
  jenjones... so you must live by hyde park and join in all protests, and have written a letter to saddam, impressive. Hal tatakallam al-lugha al-Arabiya? And it is human rights when those muslim stay in their countries of origin and get tortured, worth your effort, but they should stay where they are right. Why on earth would they come to Europe or any other country, right? OK, let's say "somehow" they came, they should just shut up, struggle to assimilate, dress like us, talk like us, walk like us, think like us, and hell why not, they should pray like us as well? they should not ever attempt to seek further rights, bec then you would not join in the protests, and boy would that be horrible..... brick and armor.... not human rights? it is a human right to be able to observe one's religion, the laws are man-made. Today the referendum might suggest a minaret is not preferred by the majority of citizens, tomorrow it might be a different story. Different people will vote. We all have to abide by the laws of the countries we reside, but it is a basic freedom: religious freedom. You cannot cherry pick dear. And did you write to the Saudi king as well? How about the Moroccan king?we were uneasy about your previous comments but after reading this last one, we had a good laugh, thank you.
 

Guest - Tracey
2009-12-07 00:04:38
  Excellent article Mustafa! Very well written and argued; you addressed and thoroughly rebuked all of the major issues that the supporters of this clearly islamophobic act have been trying to pawn off as reasonable defenses for discrimination, the most ridiculous one being that since this was a referendum the will of the people must be obeyed....even though the basic principles of a constitutional government by their very core prevent the will of (or tyranny of, as some have suggested) the majority from crossing certain boundaries, such as freedom of religion and freedom from discrimination. Also, in response to Jen L Jones and others who follow the twisted logic of 'an eye for an eye' or, more accurately, "in order to stand up for religious minorities in the most repressive, extreme, fringe incarnation of your religion (Saudi Arabia) we will copy their actions by banning your religious symbols in our country as well." This sort of narrow-sighted (and minded) process is the catalyst for the exact same kind of religious-based discrimination that Ms. Jones decries. How will exacting repressive action against Muslims in Switzerland going to help one iota in achieving religious freedom for minorities in Saudi Arabia? If anything it will make religious elites in Saudi Arabia more entrenched in their positions. Secondly, Saudi Arabia probably makes up less than 2% of the worldwide Muslim population, not to mention the fact that the leaders of this country do not speak for everyone, possibly not even the majority. So you suggest punishing any and all Muslim immigrants (almost all of whom came from Turkey and eastern Europe) because of the decisions of this group of people?!?! The fact that you referred to the ban on minarets as nothing more than preventing the construction of "bricks and mortar towers" shows your flagrant ignorance of and bias towards Islam (and this is coming from a non-Muslim). Right, just like the cross is just a couple of sticks stuck together perpendicularly...that's clearly all it means to Christians. And lastly, since when do you get to decide what is or is not a 'universal' right? Last time I checked, freedom from religious discrimination and repression was included in just about every human rights document in existence (the UN Declaration of Human Rights, the European High Court of Human Rights Charter, etc). This is the true double standard, prescribing human rights violations as a remedy to other human rights violations. If you want to preach about (legitimate) human rights abuses in places like Saudi Arabia Ms. Jones (and clearly you do a lot of preaching), first start by holding your own systems and laws to ALL standards of human rights, such as freedom from religious discrimination (and if you want to argue that only banning Muslim symbols while leaving the issue of church crosses and steeples untouched is not religious discrimination, well, then your anti-Muslim bias is even deeper than I thought). Or put it more simply, didn't anyone ever teach you that two wrongs don't make a right?
 

Guest - Zonkey
2009-12-06 23:48:55
  Heh – I’m really disappointed at having been missed out from the list of contributors cited by Mr Goksel Doganay in his tantrum, but here goes ………… Mr Akyol has written a much better piece at the second time of asking. His first reaction was over the top. He is right that there is a sniff of racism in the air here when we examine the activities of the instigators of the referendum. And, of course, the referendum is a provocation of sorts too. Mr Akyol lays it on the line for us at the end of the article when he states ‘’One of the effective ways to fight Islamism is to convince the Muslims that the modern world respects and accepts their religious values, rather insulting or banning them.’’ Well, here’s a difficulty. In a free society, we don’t have to respect religious values if we don’t want to. Respect can’t be demanded here, particularly if some of those religious values are at odds with those of our own that we too hold dearly. I think every human has a right to a level of basic respect but religion doesn’t and will have to get increasingly used to scrutiny and being judged on its own merits or otherwise. There are places in the world where your religion is above question, as long as you back the right religion of course. Europe (and Australia) is not one of those places yet. Mr Goksel Doganay, with respect sir, chew on that !
 

Guest - SenBen
2009-12-06 22:30:12
  Islam does not need a protection, we need a protection from the medieval islam. I say this as a turk and as a non believing muslim. Instead of protecting a religion we shoud focus to support integration. The problem is that the islam is the biggest problem to bring this muslims into the european societies. The laws of islam are diametral to the western values: free speech, a right to be believe what ever u want, women rights, democracy, cultural freedom and the right of a individium to go his own way. I say this: as muslim u must stop believing to arrive in the western societies. If u cant do it go back to your muslim motherlands. Again i say this as a turk and muslim. The parallel societies are growing and growing. The local people are in fear. They have all rights to express their fears in democratic votes. In Turkey we woud burn christians when they woud act against the islam majority.
 

Guest - Jen L. Jones
2009-12-06 19:24:48
  In reply to Mr.Doganay who included me in his blanket condemnation of posters who dared to mention Islamic intolerance: Yes, I have protested Saudi atrocities, and Aghan human rights violations, Syrian torture, and even wrote to Saddam Hussein, many times -- all to help those caught in oppressive snares of those regimes. Most of those on whose behalf I tried to intervene were Muslims, or so I believe. It didn't matter to me what religion someone had when they were facing flogging, stoning, torture, imprisonment and death. That's the thing about human rights -- they are universal. But erecting bricks and mortar towers is not a human right, hence my agreeing with the Swiss.
 

Guest - Mr Goksel Doganay
2009-12-06 17:29:27
  Alberto Castellanos what are you saying? You ignorance beggars belief. You are comparing the Christian community with the Islamic community of Switzerland. Though there are certain restrictions to minority religions in Turkey, Christians do not face unbearable restrictions. The difference between the two communities is that the Christian community in Turkey is not growing and there are plenty of churches for their place of worship. They do not have sufficient numbers to open up churches all over Turkey. In Tarsus for example St. Paul's church is not open for worship because there is no demand for it. It is very simple the supply will always need to meet the demands of the community. The Muslim community in Switzerland is growing and thereofore this has resulted in a growing demand for mosques. So far as I am aware 400 are in operation within 5 % of the Swiss population. It is like trying to elect eskimo Alaskans to the Turkish parliament. Could this happen? No? Why? Because there are no eskimo Alaskans. So lets be sensible and stick to the facts and stop flirting with realities.
 

Guest - carmen
2009-12-06 16:10:19
  im very surprised by words of Jen L Jones, how can you hold the Muslims --citizens, or denizens of those countries-- responsible for the actions of the different Middle Eastern, or Muslim-majority countries? Your words are filled with bigotry JenLJones, not all muslim countries are the same, in not all the citizenry have direct access to the government, some of them are ruled by dictatorships, some by monarchy and some by nascent democracy. Do not you know how many Muslims actually work against their own governments all around the world bec they hope to bring about change in their country's of origin? All those Iranian expats who can never go back home bec their lives are threatened? What do you mean "those muslims, who somehow believe they have a right to be there" i mean for pete's sake what kind of anger do you have against Muslims? How has islamophobia poisoned you? What is your next line, all Muslim men are rapists? These are very unsettling to read, even sadder coming from a woman with an Anglo-name
 

Guest - SenBen
2009-12-06 15:58:10
  Mr Goksel Doganay , u are an example par excellence for a turkish muslim. U cant hold the constructive critic , all this people here who commented this article are enemys and lyers and bigot people for u. Fact is, that Mr. Akyvol shoud use his verve not to protect a thing which doesnt need protecting. In Switzerland are more muslims living then christians in Turkey. This people have jobs and or they live from the social welfare. They have civil rights and can practice their religion free. They can move and say what they want. Swiss people are high educated people, they cant take it that a medieval religion which is not aible to modernise and reform itself takes slowly dominance in some areas. And this is a good reaction! Instead of yelling against the Yes voters all practising muslims shoud try to take the fear from the swiss people. But Mr Mr Goksel Doganay i say u now something hard: many muslim people havent soft skills. Black or white is th model with which many muslims explain their reality. For this kind of thinking u dont need soft skills but the western societies are much more complicated because they are rooted since the enlightment in the power of the individuum. The muslim societies dont know this definition. The majority & their ideology / religion defines the way of life. For western people is this an anachronism. It is only an anachronism that people define their lifes through a religion which is spreading agressiv exoterically. The defition of muslims and christians is wrong. The swiss people didnt voted as christians, they voted as free individuells who fear the islam as a threat to their freedom. In western societies is this more important than the freedom of religion and i hope that we will see this more often. And Mr. Doganay i wrote more then 1 times that i dont like the Islam. A question to you: who woud live longer, me in a muslim country with my anti islam attitude or a muslim like u in a country like sitzerland?
 

Guest - Leilani Angel
2009-12-06 14:41:07
  While I can see Mr. Akyol's point of view and understand the frustration with what could be deemed by some as a breach of religious freedom, the fact of the matter is that faith is not incumbent upon religious symbols. Would a Muslim be less of a Muslim if s/he were to pray to Allah in a minaret-less mosque or in the comfort of their home? The answer is no, in the same vein that infirm Catholics pray to God in a nursing home chapel instead of at St. Peter's Basilica (which is arguably the second greatest 'symbol' of Catholicism after Cavalry Hill). Spirituality and faith are a personal choice--a direct link by an individual to Unehana/Allah/God--and even if institutions or governments can attempt (successfully or not) to subvert it, in the end, the retention is faith is up to the individual. At the end of the day, despite the Swiss ban on minarets, Muslims can still practice their religion freely. After all, the truth of Allah--as shared by Muhammed--are much stronger than symbols, isn't it? Leilani Angel http://findingandromache.blogspot.com
 

Guest - John Kimon
2009-12-06 13:00:04
  1. It is not fear of Islamism that motivated the Swiss; it is distaste for Islam per se, its strictures and practices, which many Europeans regard as backward and insulting to their democratic and egalitarian sensibilities – hence the French wanting to ban the burkha. 2. You dismiss Muslim intolerance and oppression of Christians too lightly. It is a good justification for seeking to clampdown on Islam in Europe. In Europe, we can see in practice what Islam means for those who don't follow that creed, and we don't want a situation where such an authoritarian and totalitarian ideology is allowed to expand and eventually threaten our way of life. Show you respect us and we'll respect you. Why won't Turkey open Halki. Why has Turkey destroyed the Christian heritage of northern Cyprus? See, it is not just Islamists who are the problem. 3. The big question is whether Islam – with its political and legal ambitions, its ambition to shape and dominate the whole of society – is compatible with democracy and liberalism. It cannot be so. In Europe, we cannot accept that strictures and laws as allegedly communicated to a man in the desert from an extraterrestrial being as the basis of how we live our lives and regulate our societies. Democracy and religion are totally incompatible and anyone who doesn't know this doesn't know what democracy is.
 

Guest - Engin
2009-12-06 08:52:29
  To YABANCHİıSTANBUL: I am agree with you that most of the Islamic countries don’t pay attention to Human rights and democracy.. That’s correct BUT this does not justify Switzerland current policy. I lived in Europe about ten years. There is increasing racism in Europe. There are lot of discrimination against foreigners especially "the OTHERS..the Turks” in the European countries including Switzerland . By the way there are still attacks against Jewish cemeteries. Unemployment is more than double in foreign population. There are lot of samples… How many Director/chief positions are occupied by foreigners in Switzerland Universities/research institutes (except Germans, because “Switzerland is included in German influenced area” ..Germans are treated like Swiss)? Dirty works need to be done by Turks…Am I wrong?. Fortunately University educated population is increasing but very slowly.. European countries are always arrogantly trying to teach us democracy and human right. Before you accuse someone, you have to look at your house!!!! Thanks
 

Guest - carmen
2009-12-06 04:23:09
  im very surprised by words of Jen L Jones, how can you hold the Muslims --citizens, or denizens of those countries-- responsible for the actions of the different Middle Eastern, or Muslim-majority countries? Your words are filled with bigotry JenLJones, not all muslim countries are the same, in not all the citizenry have direct access to the government, some of them are ruled by dictatorships, some by monarchy and some by nascent democracy. Do not you know how many Muslims actually work against their own governments all around the world bec they hope to bring about change in their country's of origin? All those Iranian expats who can never go back home bec their lives are threatened? What do you mean "those muslims, who somehow believe they have a right to be there" i mean for pete's sake what kind of anger do you have against Muslims? How has islamophobia poisoned you? What is your next line, all Muslim men are rapists? These are very unsettling to read, even sadder coming from a woman with an Anglo-name
 

Guest - ryan
2009-12-06 04:04:21
  to Jen L. Jones: Your statements are very disturbing. If your goal is provocation, well-done, but if you are venting, here is some food for thought: my ancestors came to the US from Britain to practice their religion freely. They were Quakers and in the old country they did not have the rights so they came here for a better life. Reading your words, one understands you are against the free movement of the people. Born in wherever you should stay there until you die right? STAY PUT MUSLIMS, you want to tell them? Second, there have been many protests towards Saudi gov's actions all around the world, I am with you on that more pressure on the Saudi kingdom would be required to bring forth any change in there, but are we going to hold SA as our stick of measurement for what is the right thing to do all around the world? So that is the lowest common denominator we can take? Turks or Muslims have no right to criticize anyone bec SA sucks? Is that fair you think? In addition, do you think of Turks, Muslims as backwards, dirty, low-life creatures, worthless may be? Let me guess you are now saying: your best friends are Turks and Muslims right? That is a outright racist statement Ms. Jones, I am very sorry to confront you like this but your words come out not only deragotary but also demeaning. Yes, there are different laws in SA vs. Turkey vs. the US vs. the EU, we are all obliged to abide by the laws of the countries where we visit, and/or reside; we can try to change these laws, yes, but we cannot say if one's country of origin does not give them rights, they should not be demanding them where they live now. Do you believe this bec you see these people worthless? I think you owe an apology to the others in this forum, and i sincerely hope this cognitive dissonance can shape your feelings for the better. There are very good Muslims, very good Middle Eastern food, amazing Arab music, beautiful people who are Muslim, they will most likely forgive you.
 

Guest - ameer_r2
2009-12-05 23:01:58
  The mentality displayed by most of the critics of Mustafa Akyol shows that they do not want to accept the fact that regardless of the position of Saudi Arabia or Turkey regarding Chrisitan activity, the actions of the Swiss have been condemned by most objective sources in the world. See: http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2009/12/2009124171829382892.html or Google John Esposito The anti-Turkish, anti-Muslim position is clear and their "Love iti or leave it" stance smells of cultural arrogance. Most of the Muslims in Europe are just simple believers who want to live side by side with their fellow citizens. The real value of Mustaf's articles is that they show that many readers share similar views with many of the far right but are relly only a noisy minority making loud noises but signifying nothing positive or noteworthy.
 

Guest - ALBERTO CASTELLANOS
2009-12-05 21:15:48
  Mr Akyol, look at this: how many Christians are living in Turkey, comnpared to the large amount of Turkish and others muslims living in Europe? besides the huge pile of burocracy, of lobbying and patience, it is NOT EASY to build a Christian church in Turkey, and if it happens, it is bacause the small amount of christians is not a threat for Turkey. Mr Erdogan says he is tolerant, but perhaps you remember that the Western world is tryting for long to build a church where St Paul (aziz Paulus) were born in Tarsos, but so far, nothing at all!! Alberto Castellanos Florida, USA
 

Guest - name withheld
2009-12-05 21:06:05
  What I think Hasan Cemal did not understand is that Calvin was an intolerant theocrat. The religious wars in Europe led to nationalism. (The worst for the Jews were Spain during the Inquisition and Germany under the Nazis.) Although Puritans were Calvinists, they suffered religious persecution from the Church of England and sought to escape that by coming to america. Thus separation of church and state, freedom of speech, religion, speech and right to assembly became the 1st amendment to the Constitution because they wanted to abolish religious persecution. Communism kept the lid on nationalistic wars and hatred with an iron fist. With the fall of communism, we saw the rise of nationalism and old ethnic hatreds coming to the surface. With the fall of the Ottoman empire with its system of religious tolerance, we saw the rise of arab nationalism and ensuing intolerance. Muslims do face discrimination in Europe, and we are fixated on Switzerland now and the problem in Switzerland. I just thought you should realize that Calvin was not tolerant and you cannot appeal to bigots; however, assuming the whole world is not run by bigots, you may appeal to them. Many people who did not like the intolerance in Europe left to america and made it a better place. As for Turkey, I think Ataturk wanted it to be a modern, democracy from what I read.
 

Guest - Mr Goksel Doganay
2009-12-05 19:54:53
  Mr Akyol this is a good article and some comments by some of the bloggers is downright disgraceful. What I am reading is some sad excuse that Muslims mistreat their minorities in Muslim countries so therefore the West should mistreat Muslims. This is a very disgraceful comment and does not contribute to harmony or peace. To Wolf, Bill from Chicago, dr P, Major Pat, 7Hills, Kafir, Yabancistanbul, nat, B.Baronian, SenBen, Jen L. Jones shame on all of you and your lame pathetic arguments. This has turned into a anti-Islamic blog with your intolerant comments. If you don't like Muslims and Islam and said that you don't like their practices I would respect you more. But instead I'm reading your sad excuses to mistreat Muslims in the West. I want to know if you are so concerned about Christian minorities treatment in Muslim countries eg. Saudi Arabia do you really care? What have you guys done to alleviate their plight? Have you boycotted any Saudi product eg. Petrol? Have you protested their plight at Western Embassies? For your information Saudi Arabia is a Western ally, do you think Western governments care about how minorities are supposedly treated? I think it is time for you sorry excuses of human beings to be honest and tell the truth rather than flirting with stupid comments and venting your dislike of Islam or Muslims. This article is not about Christian mistreatment in Muslim countries. This is about Switzerland, their supposed high standards of freedom of religion and their decision to ban minarets. Mr Akyol has eloquently in clear English explained why this referendum is wrong. In conclusion you cannot claim to be an example for other nations in terms of freedom of religion then go ahead and restrict religious freedom.
 

Guest - YABANCHİıSTANBUL
2009-12-05 19:28:28
  The same adagio here: the Western world is the Christian world. Are you kidding me? Most people in Europe are non-affiliated. That Mr. Mustafa became good friends with some reli-Christian fundamentalists in the USA, whom back his arguments to a certain degree is not related to this topic. But one thing is weird: Turkey, a supposed secular country, vent their anger on Europe which they want to join so desperately. There was fredom of speech in Europe. Not anymore since people who are opposed to some mediaval practizes are seens as racists. Ataturk must be turn in his grave. And yes. Turkey needs the EU. For FDI and tourism since Turkey doesnt have any natural resources. And instead of being a bridge between the West and the Middle Est, it became a tunnel. Thanks to the theocrats in Turkey. Religion, the official Sunni one is more important than the well being of human kind. Kindest
 

Guest - Foreigner
2009-12-05 19:11:47
  I have a reply to the question of Major Pat and B.Baronian's comment on how can you distinguish between non violent muslim and the violent one: The same way we distinguish between non violent christians and the ones that lead the slavery, holocaust, droping atomic bomb in hiroshima and nagasaki civilians (which top the 9/11 events which are questioned by many intellectual americans as who the author really was), genocides in Bosnia, Kosovo, Rwanda...Questions is how do we distinguish normal people from racist ignorant wacos (you?) that blame collectively all muslims. Just ponder on this fact - Al-Qaeda has killed more muslims than christians, if you doubt this it won't take you more than an hour to establish the fact. Add to this the war on terrorism ('al-qaeda') and see how many more muslim civilians are killed without discrimination! Disgusting hypocrites.
 

Guest - Heisenberg
2009-12-05 19:00:53
  Mr. Akyol, you say that "what made some Turkish Muslims see the minarets as 'bayonets' were the threats they faced. Otherwise, everybody knows that the minarets are only the symbol, and the source, of the call “to prayer, to salvation.” Ayaan Hirsi Ali gives a different explanation of the symbolism of minarets in her very compelling article in today's Christian Science Monitor. http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1205/p09s01-coop.html I would call this a must-read for people like you who deal with these matters.
 

Guest - murat
2009-12-05 18:06:54
  As a Turk, I don't see nothing to criticize Europeans. We live in here with our double standards. If this Islamic groups provokes their hosts with the highest minarets, some defensive reaction will come into question. Secularism and liberalism is not the foolishness and has not to be foolish.
 

Guest - Wolf
2009-12-05 17:28:55
  I am curious. We are constantly bombarded with propaganda pointing out how horrible the West is. They are racists, they do not respect freedom of religion, blasphemy, double standards, no moral values, etc etc. (Read M Akyols column from yesterday, it is basicaly a summary of how pure evil the west is, as oposed to the pure and good Islamic countries). When I read article after article on this topic, I wonder, why are all these millions of millions of Muslims going to the West? They have for example been living in Switzerland without minareths, but all of a sudden the whole Muslim world is all worked up about towers, ministers do what they can to support this friction (by withdrawing money etc etc) and soon we will probably see violence, fires, riots, death threats etc further increasing the tension between the two civilasations. But still, if the West is so horrible, and the Muslims do not want to live a western life style (supported by Erogan in e.g. Germany), why do they go to the West, instead of staying in the Middle East with Muslims Brothers and minareths etc. I want to underline, that I am not critisizing immigration etc., but I am as I said curious why so many Muslims go to something which is so horrible in their eayes.
 

Guest - SenBen
2009-12-05 17:12:12
  @Bill, great comment. Thank you for this objective arguments u brought here.
 

Guest - Major Pat
2009-12-05 17:09:01
  If this columnist spares us another article on the Swiss referendum, I will gladly donate $50 to Mustafa Akyol's "Lets Bury Christendom Under Our Minarets Building Fund".
 

Guest - Jen L. Jones
2009-12-05 15:58:01
  We are still waiting for outrage, demonstrations, and political statements to be directed against Saudi Arabia, which, for some reason, is allowed to discriminate with impunity -- and appears to be untouchable as far as criticism from Turks, or any other Muslims, goes. What's happened here is that this double standard has caught up with Muslims in Europe. The news is out: Muslims discriminate in their own countries, yet demand equal treatment in Europe. Yes, taking the high road would mean that the Swiss would welcome huge, towering minarets throughout their small country. Unfortunately the high road, in this case, since it would be encouraging a religion, Islam, with political ambitions, leads to cultural oblivion. The Swiss have chosen correctly. It is after all, Switzerland, the country of the Swiss. For those Muslims, who somehow believe they have a right to be there, the time has come for reciprocal treatment to kick in. Muslims must extend the same rights to white, Christian, Europeans in Saudi Arabia, for example -- or at least let us witness Muslim outrage, Muslim demands, and Muslim demonstrations directed at the Saudis. Until that is forthcoming, all the protests about Swiss actions are hollow.
 

Guest - ameer_r2
2009-12-05 15:57:26
  Muchof the criticism of Mustafa Akyol’s assessment of the mentality of those who voted for the ban of minarets has come from those who see it as,”The pot calling the kettle black” and “People who live in glass houses shuld not throw stones” on the part of Turkish leaders. What the U:S did with the native Americans and their present situation as well as African Americans does not prevent it from highlighting all kinds of discrimination and lack of freedom in other lands. The nature of the propaganda used by far right groups in Europe and even politicans like Sarkozy who use the possibility of Turkey entering the EU or the wearing of the burqa to caters to its racist citizens to win votes. Geert Wilders, the Dutch racist, is more direct in stating that Islam is the problem as it is incompatible with European values. An immigrant population is always targeted as not willing or able to integrate or fully assimilate the life style of the host country. Nazi propaganda focused on the looks and dress of Jews and tookadvantage of the Catholic teaching at that time that allowed Jews to be portrayed as “Christ killers”. Even though minarets are not essential to a mosque,the visible symbol of minarets as “bayonets” or “missiles” in the heart of “Christian Europe” is exploited to show that Muslims are a foreign element that needs to be isolated and contained before it spreads and corrupts the host society. Even if the call to prayer was made to sound like yodelling, it still would not be enough for some. The ıdea that "artists, journalists, writers, comedians etc. in Europe who feel like many ordinary citizens who feel threatened day by day by the demonstrative and provocative presence of the Islam and this requires Muslims to become invisible shows a mentality that cannot accept a different value system which is also common with Jewish and Christian conservatives. Neither side should impose its views on others but there should be an acceptance of divergent ways of living. The point Mustafa Akyol was trying to make was that every act that targets a particular ethnic or religious group as the other has the potential to pave the wayfor further restricitons and even expulsion. For ghettoes not to be established there has to be freedom to live among the host populatlion so that people can be judged individually and not sterotyped. Whenever the majority are made to feel threatened by the number or influence of a growing minority, it acts to preserve its privileges. The call from the minaret is to worship a common Creator and should be welcomed by all.
 

Guest - Major Pat
2009-12-05 15:47:26
  Re: "B.Baronian's" comment. Great question!! Would be great if Mustafa dedicated a column to answering THAT riddle!!
 

Guest - Fatih
2009-12-05 15:41:35
  @YabanciIstanbul: Ask all the cases my friend. I became a muslim in Greece and I try to escape the christian culture and its rotting foundations (either moral, cultural or religious). I live in greece and I hate it. Why can't the greeks respect MY freedoms? Instead they spread their religion of drinking, one night stands and immorality and they constantly flirt with my fiancee not respecting the fact that we are engaged. So yea, I am also a refugee but I'm running away from the "civilized" west.
 

Guest - Clytemnestra
2009-12-05 15:34:04
  As an American, I say, hear, here! Right on! Power to the people! No, not the Swiss; anybody but the Swiss. They're dead wrong, of course and I'm in total agreement with you. I think every country should look and act exactly the same. That's the problem in this world, people are just too darn different, stubbornly insisting on having their countries hold onto their customs and traditions. How dare they! I can't believe they honestly thought you emigrated to Switzerland and got citizenship to soak up Swiss culture, of all things. How gullible can they be? That's okay, between the two of us we can disabuse those naughty Swiss of those silly notions of theirs. And I swear that I won't rest until my American developers have set up strip malls, McDonalds, Burger Kings and Disney Worlds in every freakin' country in the world! I mean, what purpose is there to travel across the globe if I can't see the same old sights and do the same old things I did back home in the good ole US of A?! If I want to get a feel for France, for example, I'll just go to Las Vegas and hit the Paris casino. Too bad we don't have a Switzerland Casino in Las Vegas, but it's only a matter of time. I can be patient.
 

Guest - SenBen
2009-12-05 15:01:02
  it is not the job of the west to bring enlightment into the islamic societies. It is OUR OWN JOB! ! ! U get respect when u earn respect ! ! Why shoud i respect someone when he is calling me infidel many western people argue. Muslims have much to learn Mr Akyol . They like very often the victiom role. Mr Akyol we will not get respect when we behave hysteric after a democratic vote like this one in swiss. Mr Akyol, we can be happy that many western media hold the sentence: "Muslims cannot .. " small. Can u imagine what woud happen when the western press, tv etc woud have made big headlines with this stupid statement? Fact is that the DITIB has no soft skills and are doing a bad job in europe. They totaly ignore the fears of the local people. They are not ignorant or arrogant, they are only stupid and thats worser. We , the muslims must show the world that we support human rights , tolerance and liberalism. We must show it with hard facts. I dont see anything. Can u give us some examples in your next article. I have a headline for u: The islam benefits to the world!
 

Guest - Steve
2009-12-05 14:36:15
  Can I just say YABANCHİıSTANBUL you hit the nail on the head. Very well written.
 

Guest - B. Baronian
2009-12-05 14:28:27
  This is a complicated issue but basically how does one differentiate between a peaceful Muslim intent on living a peaceful life, raising a good family amongst peaceful people of other creeds and religions and a VIOLENT, SUICIDAL one whose only intention is to blow up people and kill infidels...you explain it to us
 

Guest - nat
2009-12-05 13:13:23
  While many of the comments below include good points, they are ignoring some of the most important arguments of the article above. Many people include that Muslim countries are not well known for absolute religious freedom for minorities - first of all, Saudi Arabia is not the only Muslim country and should not be taken as any kind of example of Islamic culture, second, if you want to argue for more freedom for religious minorities in these countries, the way is to provide ABSOLUTE religious freedom in western countries. This is a large step back for western culture, and I would agree with the NYT that it is indeed a disgraceful act - as a westerner, I believe that we must display sincere tolerance if we expect to receive it in return. The author here rightly notes that democracy has in the past voted against human rights - including the Jim Crow laws, and there are plenty of other examples out there. As they say - if you fight fire with fire, you're only going to get burned.
 

Guest - YABANCHİıSTANBUL
2009-12-05 12:28:30
  Again, Mustafa, you fail to come up with some sentences based upon logical thinking. And again you try to cover up, on purpose, the real reasons which led to this ban and that is culture imperialism. You can read all the European newspapers of the last years and you will see than one after the other Islam group, most of the time financial supported by countries such as Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE etc., are trying to build the highest minaret. I shall spare you the details but take a look at the raids on the Milli Gorus offices last week because this Turkish Muslim group is involved in a huge fraud. They were the frontrunners to build the highest minarets in Amsterdam Cologne etc. First) Since when is Islam a race? Therefore you using the term ‘racism’ is senseless. What real racism is this: The Jewish race are not allowed to enter the ‘Holy’ country of Saudi Arabia. That would be the same as all Arabs for example are not allowed to enter Vatican City. That is racism. Second) You write down here that this ban is violation of religious freedom. Can you explain who’s religion is restricted in Europe by this ban? I am pretty sure that the ECHR will not overturn this. Third) Yes, democracy together with freedom of speech (remember the first amendment in the USA), human and women rights and justice are the highest values. Not the values set by self declared religious bigots who act as Übermensch to create a caliphate. Can you find me one Muslim country which have the above mentioned high values in their constitution and practices it? No, you cannot. Fourth) You complete ignore where all those fears for Islamization comes from…ask homosexuals, all the women in women shelters, people who left their religion the Islam behind them, ask artists, journalists, writers, comedians etc. in Europe who feel like many ordinary citizens who feel threatened day by day by the demonstrative and provocative presence of the Islam. They feel abandoned by their governments while they tried to build up a multi cultural and multi ethnic society. They know the answer! Fifth) That your PM cited a poem written 90 years ago is the best example that he still think that way now 10 years later. And last but not least, stop playing the victim. The world turns on and there is no global crisis as your Minister of Foreign Affairs stated. But take one lesson, only secularism and humanisme can safe this world, not religion, not from most variants from Islam neither from some reli-Christian fundamentalists in the USA. Kind regards
 

Guest - kafir
2009-12-05 11:19:54
  If it were only a matter of people wanting to practice their religion. There are those Muslims who take very seriously the command to put the whole world under Shariah Law. Regarding your defence of Mr. Erdogan's taste in poetry; that is precisely what is troubling about this man, the dangerous blend of Islamism and nationalism which he models and supports. Conservative democrat? I don't think so!
 

Guest - 7 Hills
2009-12-05 09:31:42
  What a bunch of nonsense. Why can't people just accept the fact that most of the people in Switzerland don't want the minarets. If muslims don't feel welcome in Switzerland, they can leave. They can stay and continue to worship in the mosques. There are bigger problems in the world to deal with than mosque architecture in Switzerland. Get over it!
 

Guest - RedHogg
2009-12-05 06:45:46
  I fail to understand why the Muslim must always have what they desire. They can pray to who they pray too in where ever they pray as many times as they do what they do. Why should or must anyone care or have to hear your so called call to prayer (and this salvation stuff is quite a streach). I for one do not want to ever hear your call to paryer I would loose my mind if I did so I can compleatly understand why others have had enought of your call and the tools of your call. Just so we are clear; I would deport every Muslim from any non Muslim land as quickly as possible. I have no respect for a religion that opresses others yet cry for equality by using the laws of their host country. And look how the snake speaks: One of the effective ways to fight (yes fight was the word used) Islamism is to convince the Muslims that the Modern world respect and accepcts their religious values, rather (than) insulting or banning them. Wow that is such BS. We should reach out to the Muslim and convince them that we respect and accepts their religious values, how about the Muslims convince the World that they respect and accepts religious values and laws of others, rather than insulting or banning other religions as they do. Man you Muslims have some nerve! It is this sort of talk what makes me dislike the logic of the typical brain washed Muslim. Its is not our job or responsibility to accepts you or your religion at any time in fact if you dont shape up and begin to show some respect for others properly and show some respect of other nation's laws which reflect the will of the people you might get your butt kicked out of the country and in my view that is the way should go, we should not even consider you coming to a rational state of mind and just kick you all our now. Shape up Muslim or ship out, you live by our rules or you can leave. No one should put up with a Muslim in my view, they can go back to whereever they come from and live in peace, but dont dear tell the world that we must accomodate you, when you accomdate no one. The Swiss should say NO and if the Muslims keep talking about it we will stop some more of your foolishness in our next vote. How about that Muslim and again if you dont like it leave. We will do well without you much as we did.
 

Guest - Major Pat
2009-12-05 06:27:45
  You ask alot of the West and the Swiss in particular. You demand that the West make nuanced and complicated differentiations between "jihadis', 'Wahabbis' and peaceful tea-drinking and peace loving Muslim democrats. It's much less complicated for Muslims to have to differentiate terrorist threats from potential suicide bomb throwing Swiss Calvinists, Lutherans and Catholics...there simply are none.
 

Guest - Dilara
2009-12-05 05:50:26
  I think we got enough that already , can we just move on?? What can we do in end, It is the Swiss call anyway!!!
 

Guest - dr p
2009-12-05 05:13:16
  i wish i could accept your conclusion, but alas! we have a problem with definition. i understand "respects and accepts their religious values, rather insulting or banning them" to mean a willingness to tolerate creedal difference without depriving opponents of their civil rights; islamists believe "respects and accepts" to mean conversion. until the muslims themselves openly repudiate islamism, they have no group credibility.
 

Guest - kyle boyer
2009-12-05 03:32:03
  i believe the muslims should be able to practice thier religion anywhere they live, their religion is just as important as anyone else.
 

Guest - Bill from Chicago
2009-12-05 03:08:27
  Mr. Akyol, First off it was a pleasure reading this article along with a number of others by you today. While I agree with you it was the wrong decision from the standpoint of short term relations I also believe it needed to be done. I say that because many ignore why it happened. It happened because of real and perceived fear but more importantly because it said 'we are not tolerating the intolerant anymore.' We are tired of the overt hypocrisy of the Islamic world when it comes to religious and human rights. We are outraged because: 1) Muslims are allowed to do dawa, build/repair mosques, and openly practice their faith in the West. Yet in the Islamic world these are severly restricted if not outright prohibited. 2) The Islamic world can bleat on and on about Israel yet ignore Turkey still occupies half of cyprus 3) Again the Islamic world can fixate on Israel claiming genocide yet ignore an actual genocide in Darfur at the hands of their fellow coreligionists. The entire Israeli Arab conflicts has claimed 50,000 lives while Darfur over 2 million since the early 90's. 4) The Islamic world says their religion is one of peace and tolerance yet every year Islamic states make up a who's who of the world worst human and religious rights abusers. 5) Turkey can make demands of Germany to import Islamic teachers and clergy but when a German MP suggests the oppositie a resounding no is his the answer he gets. 6) The OIC can propose Defamation of Religions legislation at the UN despite its members clearly not believing it hold true for other religions. Read the Cario Decleration of Human rights and pay attention to what it says about religious freedom. 7) It is always the other guys fault for our societies ills. We in the West did not force the Islamic world to reject critical thinking(Greek thought.) It was the Islamic world who did this on their own basically saying imitating the infidel was tatamount to heresy. Read Al Ghazali's work 'The Incoherence of the Philosophers' for perspective. 8) Only one demographic group in Europe has created literally hundereds of no go areas. You don't hear about Hindus, Buddhists, or any other faith group creating these kinds of areas. 9) The fact that religious minorities get smaller and smaller each year in the Islamic world larely due to persecution. The last Jews in Yemen who just left said last year "protect us or deport us." 10) Muslims can convert us but the other way around is viewed as a provocation. 11) The false chant of Islamophobia yet Islamic scripture unlike any other faith is cleary xenophobic of the other. The Swiss ban while repugnent from a democratic standpoint is simply a blunt response to the intolerance rife throughout the Islamic world. Maybe Muslims need to experience a 'Christian' version of Sharia to experience the full extent of the draconian laws our coreligionists are forced to live with every day. I want to see the bridge gaped between the two civilizations but it takes two dance. After reading the Quran, a Hadith source, and the Sira I often come to the conclusion it can't happen and that is the crux of the problem. When scripture puts such a clear negative predisposition on the other and views them as an inherent threat to faith it's kind of hard to coexist. This begs the big question "while we in the west will except Muslims will Muslims every trully except us?" Thx Bill
 

Guest - Harry Foundalis
2009-12-05 01:14:24
  Mr. Akyol, you wrote: “the ban is clearly a violation of religious freedom. It would be a violation of religious freedom, too, if crosses were banned from church roofs […]” Wrong analogy. A church cross is not seen from miles away, changing the skyline of a city as a minaret does. I’m quite sure that most of the Swiss who supported the ban didn’t have architectural considerations in mind, but I, as an atheist, would support the ban, too, because I don’t want the city in which I live to change its appearance in the way some religious people want to make it appear. Let me give you another analogy, and you tell me if you would be disturbed or not in the following situation: Suppose a church is built in your Muslim-dominated neighborhood, and it employs a loud church bell that marks the prayer time, say, three times a day. Day in, day out, you try to concentrate in your work, but the church bell comes and spoils your peace and quiet. Wouldn’t you be right in saying that the church bell is an *intruder* in your personal space? Yes, you’d be right, and I’d agree with you. Now the church bell in my analogy is an intruder through its *sound*, it’s an *audible* intruder. The minarets in a European city are intruders as *images*, they are *visual* intruders. Do you see the point? Again, I know architecture is not the real cause of the ban, but I’m trying to tell you that your analogy with church crosses is entirely off target. Think of the church bell drilling your brain daily and driving you nuts, and then you might start realizing that the freedom of some religious people should be limited at the point where it starts violating personal spaces of other people.
 

Guest - Wolf
2009-12-05 00:11:28
  I do not fully share the view of Mr Akyol. The muslims have built 400 mosques in Switzerland, and that is in a country with 7 million people. That would be as if we in Turkey built 4000 churches in 25 years. The second part is that just because something is labeled "religion", that does not give it a green light for everything. If I claim that it is part of my religion to go naked in the streets, and the police stops me, can I then shout racism and claim freedom of religion. And if it is then claimed that people might find it offending (symbolism), can I then just get away with such behaviour by claiming that it is not offending according to me? No, of course not. And the reason is that religious people also have to adopt the environment they are in. Just like a bad teacher blaiming students for being stupid for not understanding, maybe the Muslims in Switzerland can also ask themselves what have we done since people feel uncomfortable around us and with our minareths. And lastly, why did the Muslims go to Switzerland if there were no minaretes and such minarets are so necesary? Could they not go to for example Iran, there plenty of them can be found.
 

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